Guido, I know
it is so senseless.
Can't talk any sense into them.
Stick around - please.
We are a few weeks away - from their ABSOLUTE DEFEAT.

I don't know where you are
But WHERE-EVER - it can't be too far.
Give Emina your E. I will get it from her.

Emina, I asked you in one of our lost E's.
Wat doe je voor de eeuw-wisseling?
Ik vind dat wat jij (gratis) doet voor de vluchtelingen,
terug betaalt moet worden.

I am glad you don't "hate" Christians,
because I am one.
I take pride in being a Christian.
I was baptised Roman Catholic
But I am just a man - just a Christian.
Moslims recognize "Christ"
be it as one profet - this is good enough.
Christ is good.
The Serbs that have been causing the damage to you
are "orthodox" Christians,
I thank God for being "unorthodox".


Ik wil jullie (jij en Zoya en Guido en zijn familie)
uitnodigen om hier te zijn
met eeuw-wisseling.
Zou dat kunnen?

Christians,

Speak softly - but carry a big stick.

PRACTICE RANDOM KINDNESS

AND

SENSELESS ACTS OF BEAUTY

FOR ALL.

I would like to offer a good legal defense to all past, current and future war criminals - just say: "We are sorry, it was an error" - the same as the current British war criminals.

Thus, you can kill any number of civilians (children) and get away with it (no questions asked by friendly journalists). Add: "My enemy is doing even worse", so that nobody forgets that you are killing for a "just cause". Also, blaim your enemy for your own killings.

The only problem is that you have to have a big NATO army and a few nukes behind you to get away with that kind of "legal argument". If you do not, the real war criminals will be after you.

Spiro

Robert Fisk: FAMILIES BLASTED IN 'JUST ANOTHER MISTAKE'
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 01:12:36 GMT
From: address.below.or@web.site (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Reply-To: jai@mantra.com (Dr. Jai Maharaj)
Organization: Mantra Corporation
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa, soc.culture.indian, alt.fan.jai-maharaj, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.yugoslavia, alt.politics.clinton, alt.impeach.clinton, soc.culture.british

Robert Fisk: FAMILIES BLASTED IN 'JUST ANOTHER MISTAKE'

By Robert Fisk in Surdulica, Serbia
The Independent
April 29, 1999

War in The Balkans

Families blasted in `just another mistake'

They had been torn apart. Blood was caked around what was left of Vojislav Milic's cellar, and there was the smell of meat. In the morgue, they had been unable to fit together the pieces of his son and daughter-in-law and his two grandchildren. Nato's bomb - one of two which struck the homes of Surdulica - had scored a direct hit on the house, killing at least nine other children in the basement, the youngest only five years old.

Mr Milic was still there, slumped over a wall in
despair, head buried in his hands, tears draining
between his fingers, a survivor who wanted to die. A tweed cap was sadly askew on his head. A blond girl put her arm round him. "We can't bear to see you like this," she wept into his ear. "We can't look at you like this."

Emergency services looking for survivors in a two-
storey home that was hit by one of the two Nato bombs dropped on the small town of Surdulica - Mikica Petrovic

Every house in Zmaj Jove Jovanovica Street had been ripped apart by the 2,000lb laser-guided bomb, their roofs flung hundreds of metres around the town, their walls cracked or blasted to the ground, their people - those who survived - taken to hospital in their dozens.

The few who remained untouched stood in the mud beside the wreckage yesterday. Most were crying. At least one appeared to have gone mad.

Another Nato "mistake". How often have we been writing that word these past five weeks? The civilian dead of Aleksinac (26), the passengers burnt alive on the bombed train at Grdelica, a few miles from here (27), the civilians killed in the Nato bombing of central Pristina (10), the convoy of Albanian refugees attacked by the Americans (74).

And now another slaughter of the innocents. What did Nato think it was bombing?

"There are no military facilities in the vicinity," Nabojsa Vujovic, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, announced amid the ruins. But a middle-aged lady whose best friend had been killed in the Milic house said there had been a barracks 500m away, on the outskirts of the town. Others said it had been empty. I saw a mass of tangled white prefabricated sheeting on a hillside that might once have been a military store. The Yugoslav military said four missiles had hit
Surdulica at noon on Tuesday. Did two of them hit the "barracks"? We certainly knew where the other two exploded.

And their detonations - two laser-guided bombs hit
civilian homes, not one as Nato later claimed - broke a community apart. For the house in Zmoj Jove Javanovica Street had the strongest cellar, the safest basement with railway lines to support its roof - the ideal shelter for the children who lived in the neighbouring two-storey villas with their gardens of tulips and lilac trees. So that is where the children ran when the air-raid siren sounded over Surdulica. And that is where they died.

"Bits of them were all over the road," a young,
American-educated man said to me. "We found the head of a child in a garden and many limbs in the mud. But you don't want to report that. CNN filmed the bodies - but they didn't show them on television."

Alas, the young man was right. History is quickly
sanitised here. But in the hospital a few hours after the Nato bombing, doctors were still trying to fit limbs and heads to at least 20 torsos. Among them were the remains of Mrs Milic, her 37-year-old son, Aleksandar, his wife, Vesna, and their children, 11-year-old Vladimir and 15-year old Miljna.

The dead also included two 18-year-old men, a 21-year- old woman and the relatives of a man who walked up to us near the bomb crater with tears in his eyes and said: "I have lost what I hold most dear to me." In a house just down the road, the same Nato bomb had blasted to death his aunt, Stanica Rasic, and his cousin, Dragan Manolov, as well.

An old woman was dragged alive from the mud, just as Vojislav Milic was pulled from the tomb of his family. "When he was taken out of the basement, 'Voja' said he would hang himself," the middle-aged woman said. "The first thing he said when they pulled him out was, 'Shoot me', 'Kill me'. He had lost everything, you see - his whole family, his home."

Surdulica was not the place yesterday to discuss Nato's latest explanations of a single erroneous bomb or its expressions of regret or the British Ministry of Defence's statement - made four hours after the attack - that Nato had had "a good day" over Yugoslavia. "Take some pictures of my house," a man shrieked at us from the timbers of his smashed roof. "•••• Clinton and his
family for this. I spent 30 years building my home. You're a bunch of fascists."

Even the woman who had watched "Voja" Milic being
tugged out of the wreckage believed these houses had
been deliberately bombed. "Nato hit the barracks on 6
April," she said. "So now they came to attack us in our
homes."

Half a mile away, the anger was just as intense,
tempered only by the fact that the Nato bomb that
landed there haddestroyed the only empty house in the
street.

Radica Ristic, shouting away on the lip of the crater
that was her home, her grey cardigan splashed with mud,
her string shoes covered in earth, spoke only of a
small life in a small town. "We had run into the cellar
of our neighbour's house and our home had turned into
smoke," she wailed. "When you look at this hole - this
was my home. I've been building this house for 10
years. I work in the agricultural school and out of
this I made a living and made my home."

Surdulica will now be known as a town that lost its
children. And by terrible irony, their street of death
- Zmaj Jove Jovanovica Street - was named after a 19th-
century doctor and poet whose personal tragedy is known
to every Serb. All of his seven children died.

The Independent http://www.independent.co.uk/

Not for commercial use. Solely to be fairly used for
the educational purposes of research and open
discussion.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Posted by: Prince Charles 4/28/99 17:37:43 PDT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Source of the above and more news and discussion:
http://www.freerepublic.com/

Jai Maharaj
Latest world news at:
http://www.flex.com/~jai/topnews.html
Om Shanti

If you were wondering why America's military budget is the highest in history (even adjusted for inflation), here is the answer.

A California congressman, Richard Pombo, has had it with Clinton and Washington. Here's an excerpt from his statement published on the Net by the WorldNetDaily.com:

"This [Yugoslavia] is his [Clinton's] 33rd such foreign military excursion since taking office in 1993. That's three times the number of deployments of American troops to foreign soil of all his predecessors since World War II -- from Truman to
Bush. All together."

Interesting?

Borrowed from another site:


To the editor,

You are the only American web site I know that talks some sense so you are a relief to me. I am afraid that the American media don't inform
citizens on what is really happening now in Kosovo, just as they are
trying to distort the political (neo-nazi) side of the Littleton massacre. I've heard a lot of Christian, psychological bubble, that they were just "kids"(18 and 17 year olds are not kids!), that they were nuts, influenced by war game videos--all this crap and much more while there is a sizeable nazi organization right there in Littleton operating legally and criminally. The United States lives under the power of the National Rifle Association and I'm devastated to see this country plunge into hypocrisy (Clinton's
speech was a fine specimen), and emerge as a mass killer in the world at large. Anyway, thank you for being there.

Spiro Dreamer

Maybe we will ALL agree with you ....

Yes, maybe NATO should just step aside

and allow Milosovic to go on doing what he is best at.

You KNOW what that is.

Make it clear so we all understand :

Spiro Dreamer wants NATO to step aside and let Milo be - right?

Spiro thinks we should not interfere with Milo's "internal affairs", right?

Like the man beating his wife - it's not cop business, is it?

Spiro says : it is "DOMESTIC" violence - right?

Do I understand you correctly, Spiro?

Is this what you are saying, Spiro?

You want us to do NOTHING ?

If what we are doing is so wrong,

what do YOU SUGGEST we should do, Spiro?

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE give us a good alternative to bombing them to their knees.

TALK - is NOT an option - 10 years show no result.

We will all gladly agree with you, bombing is bad.

But just give us a good alternative in THIS case.

We all want to consider it.

Let's hear it.

A few points on the Kosovo situation By Howard Zinn


1) Milosovic and his Serb forces are committing atrocities.

2) Bombing won't help, but will only make things worse -- and that is already evident. Indeed, as the NY Times has it this morning
(Thursday), the Administration was told by CIA and Pentagon people that bombing would speed up Milosovic's "ethnic cleansing",
but it went ahead anyway. This means that not only was Clinton deceiving the public when he said his aim in bombing was to help
the people of Kosovo, but that he embarked on the bombing campaign with a reckless disregard for what would happen to the
Kosovars as a result. The bombing will only create more victims, on both sides. Innocent Yugoslav civilians will die, so that both
Kosovars and Serbians end up as victims of our policy.

3) The Kosovo Liberation Army may not represent the wishes of the Kosovar people, because it decided to turn to armed struggle to
gain independence, ruthlessly putting their countrymen at risk, when a more protracted non-violent campaign of resistance was
already going on and should have continued. I think of South Africa, where a decision to engage in armed struggle would have led to
a bloody civil war with huge casualties, most of them black. Instead, the African National Congress decided to put up with apartheid
longer, but wage a long-term campaign of attrition, with strikes, sabotage, economic sanctions, international pressure. And it worked.

4) The United States does not have a humanitarian aim in this situation -- its foreign policy has never been guided by such concerns,
but by political power, economic interest, and sometimes a motive more elusive, like machismo (we want to show the world we are
#1!, as present after president has reiterated during and after Vietnam).

5) The hypocrisy of the Clinton Administration is evident, with just a bit of recent history. For instance. When Chechnya rebelled,
desiring independence from Russia just as Kosovo wants it now, and the Russian army moved in, doing terrible things to the people
there, Clinton did not oppose this. Indeed, in fielding one reporter's question, he compared the situation to the American Civil War,
where Lincoln would not permit the Confederacy to succeed. (Will a statue of Yeltsin be erected alongside Lincoln's in D.C.?)

6) There is no sensible military solution to the ethnic cleansing going on, because it could only be stopped by putting in a large
ground force, which would mean a full scale war, in which the present violence would be multiplied greatly.

7) What is happening to the Kosovo people is heartrending, and and now with the bombing we are adding Serbian victims to the lists
of casualties. I think the only solution is a diplomatic one, forgetting the treaty the U.S. tried to force on Serbia. It will take a new
agreement, in which the Kosovites will have to settle for some form of autonomy, but no guarantee of independence. A compromise
in order to have peace. The only way this diplomatic solution can come about is through the intercession of Russia, which is the only
important power with influence over the Serbs.

8) As a minor point (since any reference to international law is futile -- it has been rather worthless for fifty years); the United States
is violating the U.N. Charter by what it is doing.It is also violating the U.S. Constitution which requires a declaration of war, and we
are certainly waging war.

9) NATO should be abolished. It is a military alliance at a time when we should be discarding military solutions, and its very
existence encourages military solutions.

10) To my surprise I was invited to be on an NBC Cable News program tonight (Saturday), and I was able to make a few points: that
violent solutions only multiply whatever evil they are claimed to counter; that when the solution to a problem is elusive, you must at
least start with one principle, the one told to medical students: "Do no harm." The U.S. and NATO (which is the creation of the
U.S.and does its bidding) are floundering, and in the course of that doing enormous damage to human beings. It will require the
citizens of the NATO countries -- especially in the U.S. -- to shout their protest at what is going on, and to demand a diplomatic
solution. When a nation issues ultimatums, it leaves no room for compromise, and insures that war will continue. We learned from
Vietnam: the ruthlessness of leaders, the stupidity of "experts", must be countered by the courage, good sense, and persistence of the
citizenry.

It sickens me to read the account of the people killed by the NATO bombing in Surdulica today. It grieves me that this war continues to grind on seemingly without end. It grieves me that so many people are having to suffer so much for the misdeeds of a small minority of that population, instigated at the direction of a madman. It grieves me that so many people are being mistreated and slaughtered and deported at the direction of this madman. Wrong is wrong, regardless of who does it.

As I said in my first post on this board, there is enough blame to go around to everyone involved in this war.

It is my understanding that there has been bad blood and ethnic fighting between Serbs and Albanians for decades if not centuries (please correct me on this if I am wrong). Albanians kidnapping and murdering Serbs and vice versa. WRONG! Albanians waging guerilla warefare against the Serbs and trying to secede Kosovo from Yugoslavia. WRONG! Then Misosevic sending in his thugs, robbing, murdering, looting, driving people from their homes, burning the homes, driving them out of the country. WRONG! Now, NATO dropping bombs and cruise missiles all over Yugoslavia (and now even Montenegro, which I understand has up to this time been friendly with the US) Seemingly hitting everything in sight that could be even remotely useful to the military (vacuum cleaners?) and a lot of things I can't see being of any military value (office buildings etc) and hitting a lot of innocent civilians in the process, both directly and indirectly. WRONG!

Some observations:

Two wrongs don't make a right. Three wrongs don't make a right. It takes at least two to make a fight.

There is a principle taught in the Bible: Whatever you sow you reap. Whatever you plant you harvest, and the harvest is always more than what you planted. Hatred begets more hatred. Violence begets more violence. And the thing just keeps going around and around, and getting bigger and bigger.

The only way I see that this war is going to end, is for everyone involved to lay down their arms, stop fighting each other and talk. And forgive. Albanians must stop fighting and killing Serbs and trying to secede from the state. Milosevich and his thugs must cease their "ethnic cleansing" and all that goes with it. NATO must stop bombing.
And all sides must come together, put aside their political ambitions and their pride, and talk this thing out til they reach a satisfactory solution. Otherwise this war is just going to keep escalating and getting bigger and nastier until (God forbid) it could develop into World War three, nukes and all. And I don't think any of us want that.

I've said it before,

If you don't like collateral damage

Then don't start wars.

DdC and Pete

Bla bla bombing is wrong. O.K. - I agree !

Since you are so good in signaling the errors in the policies
why don't you SUGGEST ALTERNATIVES !?

TALK? It has been tried for 10 years - NO RESULT !
Milosovic - can you reason with him?
'Talk' to the man that rapes your mother......
There is no talking left to do.
That's how I feel about it.

Try it - damn it.
Suggest alternatives to bombing.
Even the Russians are giving up talk.
Shortly the Russians will start bombing him too.

Bombing is not the "best" solution.
For the moment it is the "only" solution.

Unless you have a good alternative to what is being done,
then don't sit on the side and critisize those at work.

SUGGEST a viable ALTERNATIVE.

TRY. I would love to hear it.

To Peter Rose:

Milosevic is not a madman - he is just a power hungray politician, not different in attitude then Clinton, Blair, Shroder or Chirack. The only difference is in resources he has at his disposal - little army against a huge army of the other four guys.

The fighting between Serbs and Albanians has been around for a while, but never with such intensity. Over the centuries, the Albanians and the Turks have been pushing the Serbs up North and West, but quietly. In turn, the Serbs have been pushing against Hungarians and Croatians. The Croatians have recently pushed at least 300,000 Serbs back after the war in Croatia. Hungarians are likely to take back the northern province called Vojvodina, which used to belong to them only 70 years ago, after this war. Therefore, Milosevic is "expanding" into an ever smaller Serbia.

Kosovo is again the last battle for the Serbian nation.

I respect the bible as the source of a lot of wisdom, but the earthly kingdoms will always be more important to people.

I usually hear two arguments:
1. Econimic Argument: Serbians should be developing economically instead of fighting for "freedom"
2. Religious Argument: Serbians should drop their arms and search for peace because this is close to God.
People with these arguments grossly miss the point of this war.

If I could put things the way I would want them to be, it would look like this.
1. No country borders would be changeable from the Helsinki Agreement which froze the borders in Europe (German unification was the first breach of this fantastic agreement).
2. The Western countries would be trully interested in helping their own people and the people of other, poorer nations.
Etc.

I felt so idiotic and naive writing this and knowing how far from reality it is. The borders have been changing only in one direction (expanding NATO) and the Western countries have been killing their own opposition (Waco etc.) and bombing foreign opposition (Iraq, Yugoslavia).

The rest is verbal gymnastics.

To have hope, you would have to belive that the good in people is stronger than evil. Hands up, those who believe this (and give us some facts)!

Unfortunately, there is no solution then to fight until you destroy the other side or are destroyed - this is the same old way of resolving conflict.

Jack,
I am from Texas. I thought you would have figured out by now I am an uneducated redneck cowboy.
The rest of you,
There is no stopping the war now. The only solution is to send in massive amounts of ground troops and kill the Serbian army selectively, with minimal damage to the civilian sector. Bombs go awry and kill innocent people. They always have and they always will. Be thankful that we are not using WW2 technology or the civilian death rate would be MUCH higher. If NATO was targeting the civilian population purposely, then the amount of dead would be astronomical. Both sides in a war commit attrocities. This is human nature, to seek revenge for fallen comrades and loved ones. The KLA killed Serbian police, Serbian police killed KLA, civilians got in the way and were killed, so the other side killed civilians too, Serbians started killing and raping and looting (both sides were probably guilty of this) and running all Albanians out of Kosovo because they were more well armed than the KLA. Ethnic cleansing was the result. If the KLA had superior firepower and started ethnic cleansing on the Serbians, I have no doubt in my mind that Nato would be bombing the KLA now. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing. When the ground troops come in it will be a war that no one wants and all will suffer from. But in the end NATO will win because they have superior forces. Or Russia will become involved and the world will end as we know it. If Russia stays out of it, then the evidence will be gathered and the truth will be known. Until then there is nothing any of us can do except pray.

The avoidance of civilian casulties by both NATO and the Serbs is purely for propaganda reasons. It does not look very nice on the TV.

On one hand, Western media never show images of dead Serb civilians (The Greek media do). At best they mention them, usually in low numbers, before Serbs manage to dig out all the dead and the numbers rise.

On the other side, hundereds of unverified "eyewitness" accounts serve to justify the "humanitarian" war. If you were a poor Albanian refugee, wouldn't you say anything to get a place in one of the developed Western country?

A few tens of civilian casulties here and there just serve to show to the Serbs how nasty NATO could get if they do not capitulate to the will of the West.

I would consider the bombing of a passenger train (26), the attack on the no-military target town of Aleksinac (27), deliberate attacks by individual pilots, rather than a planned action.

No need to comment about the attack on the Belgrade TV station - this is obvious.

In the NATO's "humanitarisn" war only the total victory matters.

There Are Lies, and There Are Lies

By Howard Zinn

In all the excitement about Bill Clinton's sex scandal, have we as a nation lost a sense of proportion?
Clinton has lied to us, deceived us, and then covered up his deceptions about something which,
however odious, we did not need to know about and caused no one to lose a life. But there's a long
list of Presidents who have lied to us and deceived us, especially since World War II, about activities
in which thousands, even millions, of people lost their lives.

Let's start with Harry Truman. He deceived the nation and the world when he described
Hiroshima--which he had just devastated by atomic bomb--as "an important Japanese Army base."
More than 100,000 civilians--men, women, and children--died in this city of 350,000.

Truman also lied to the nation about our war in Korea, saying we were fighting for democracy (hardly,
since South Korea was a military dictatorship). More than 50,000 Americans died there. and perhaps
two million Koreans.

Dwight D. Eisenhower lied about our spy flights over the Soviet Union even after on such a mission
was shot down. He deceived the nation and the world about the U.S. involvement in the coup that
overthrew a democratic government in Guatemala. That coup brought on a succession of military
juntas that took tens of thousands of lives. Eisenhower deceived the nation about the U.S. role in
subverting a government in Iran because it was offending multinational oil corporations. The United
States put the Shah of Iran back on the throne, and his secret police tortured and executed thousands
of his opponents.

John F. Kennedy lied to the nation about U.S. involvement in the 1961 failed invasion in Cuba,
telling a press conference: "I can assure you that United States has no intention of using force to
overthrow the Castor regime."

Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon all lied to the nation about what was happening in Vietnam. Kennedy
said the United States was not involved in the overthrow of Ngo Dinh Diem. And Kennedy repeatedly
claimed that American fliers were not involved in the bombing of Vietnam, even though he sent two
helicopter companies there as early as 1961, with the U.S. military dropping napalm shortly
thereafter.

Johnson and Nixon both lied when they claimed only military targets were bombed (reporters knew the
greatest number of deaths were civilians). And Nixon deceived the nation about the secret bombing
of Cambodia.

Reagan lied to the nation about his covert and illegal support of the contras in Nicaragua. He lied
about the importance of Grenada in order to justify the 1983 invasion of that little island.

George Bush lied about the reason for invading Panama in 1989, saying it was to stop drug trade. In
fact, the United States has allowed the drug trade to flourish. Bush also deceived the nation about his
real interest in the Persian Gulf. He pretended to be anguished about the fate of Kuwait while he was
actually more concerned about enhancing American power in Saudi Arabia and controlling the
region's oil deposits.

And what of Clinton's deceptions? Against this history of lies that brought death to so many people,
Clinton's deceptions about sex are ludicrous. But these are all that the politicians and pundits care
about.

Clinton has had his own share of lies and deceits about lethal public policy. But he is not in trouble
for those.

People who are indignant that he lied about sex with "that woman" were silent when he deceived the
nation about the need to bomb a "nerve gas plant" in the Sudan. His Administration could produce
no evidence that the plant was anything but what the Sudanese government said it was--a plant that
produced medicines for the Sudanese people.

Where was the criticism of Clinton when he signed the crime bill to build more prisons and execute
more people on the falsehood that these acts will deter crime?

Where was the criticisms of Clinton when he approved the attack on the Waco compound, which led
to the deaths of eighty-one people, arguing erroneously that it was the only alternative?

Where was the criticism of Clinton when his Administration refused to join the international ban on
land mines or authorize a strong world court on the specious grounds that the United States would be
in jeopardy?

Where was the criticism of Clinton when he defended Boris Yeltsin's brutal attack on Chechnya by
obscenely comparing it to Abraham Lincoln's war to unify the states?

Where was the criticism of Clinton when he continued the embargo on Iraq, resulting in the deaths of
hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children, with the bogus rationale that the embargo punishes Sadam
Hussein?

Now these hypocrites, so silent when people die as a result of lies and deceptions, summon
indignation about Clinton's sexual activities. The President has lost his "moral authority," they say.

Did he not lose moral authority when he insisted on maintaining a $250 billion a year military
machine when money is desperately needed for health, education, child care?

If politicians and journalists have lost their sense of moral proportion, must we, as citizens, lose ours?
Should we not pull back from our obsession with lies about sex and concentrate on finding out the
truth about policies that mean life or death for people in this country and all over the world?

God Bless America!
Conserve the Government and Liberate the Citizens!
Peace not WoD
MMMay Day is this Saturday. When the World will come together to toke for World Peace and not WoD!
Cannabis:Food, Fuel, Fiber, FAMaceuticals
DdC