BOB...

You learned... You are going to do it and you are going to do it right. It doesn't look like you are doing anything right. You went in to prevent catastrophy? You escalated it to the point that it is almost unbelievable. You wanted to get rid of Milosevic? He was never so strong in power as he is now. You wanted to help refugees? They are all complaining you let them down. You were not prepared to deal with refugees, no matter what the number of them would be. You want to weaken Yugoslavian army? You are hitting empty beaurocrat buildings, bridges that have absolutely nothing to do with Kosovo, vacuum cleaners factories, hospitals, schools, heating factories. You haven't hit one army supply storage cause you have no clue where there are. You killed 10 times more civilians than soldiers. But you have to keep throwing bombs cause CNN has to show some flames and ruined buildings. Your people have no clue what they are looking at.
If you send in the ground troops your soldiers will be dying like rats. You have no clue what kind a terrain that is. There are only four ways to get to Kosovo from Albania and Macedonia and all four are traps. Thousands will die on the first day. The image on Vietnam will look like a nice day in a park compared to Kosovo. They will probably use refugees as human sheelds but that won't save them.
Will all the modern technology, planes, spies and everything else they don't have a clue what is going on downthere.
Nazi Germans already know what it is like. You can try viewing a 3D map of Kosovo to get a better view. And if you still have a death wish, do come.
If you have any kids, buy some stocks of the company that makes body bags. Atleast you will leave them some money.

By no means I wanted to be cruel. But that is what is gonna happen. Goverment that opposes ground troops knows why. Cause Clinton will be labeled as a murderer of his own kids if he sends them to Kosovo.

By Milica on Tuesday, April 6, 1999 - 01:14 am:
Maja don't stop talking, I am glad you are doing your homework! Bob you are so much determined to win, I ask you what will be your gain? Peace in Balkan? Is that the goal here? Once Serbs are dead and gone do you think there will be peace?

---

Our goal is to stop the ethnic cleansing that is going on right now. If those who do it pay a high enough price, it will make those who comtemplate it in the future think twice. The crimes against the former residents of Kosovar cannot be allowed to go unpunished.

As to whether or not the all of the Serbs will be killed, it appears that the choice is thiers. They could have lived in peace with the Kosovars and decided not to.

Maja, I served in Vietnam, so you really don't need to tell me what war is like. Malosevic and his followers have no ides what it would be like if we sent ground troops in. Given his fantasic defense in the air campaign, I don't think that his forces would present any great problems. BTW, the intent was never to "get rid of Malosevic"; however, it appears that it's going to be necessary.

Everyone knows that people die in combat. However, this air campaign has been relatively surgical. What schools and hospitals have been targeted by NATO? What about the schools and hospitals in Kosovar or didn't they count? I have no sympathy for a people who can throw people out of their homes, burn them to the ground, kill some of them, and transport the others to the border simply because they are different.

The refugees are being transported to the various NATO countries to be taken care of until they can return and rebuild thier homes. As I said before, it's really better from a military standpoint that they aren't in the area until it's over.

Should ground troops be used, the best thing for Malosovic's troops to do is to get out of the way. It's not the 1940's anymore. Of course they didn't win against the Germans either did they?

Really, they didn't win against the Germany?
I wonder what kind of a history are they teaching in America.
Want the names of all the schools they have hit? And hospitals? That can be aranged. The number of schools hit is much higher than the number of tanks hit. I have wrote all about it in one of the previous messages. Don't feel like repeating myself.
I have talked to some of the Vietnam soldiers and asked them what they think about this war, and if they would be willing to serve no they all said no. Only a naive person can take this ground troops option easily.

If you have time, read a good book on II. world war. And not one of those that school children have to read and their basic line is that America saved Europe.

Maja I wanna talk to you.
If you can, come to http://chat.yahoo.com to the board "Current Events" or "Crisis in Yugoslavia".

I wanna talk to you live because of your ignorance to posts with facts.

Just a guy from Slovenia using his own brain.

P.S.
If you'll come just use your name as nickname.

Maja, you are simply amazing! Thousands of innocent people are being driven from their homes and you continually want to change the subject from that to the history of WW II. You want to talk about the propaganda that is being put out by a press that is controlled by the government and discount the information that is put out by a free press that is not controlled by the government.

It seems that you want to talk about everything except Malosovic's continual ethnic cleansing. His people are driving the Kosovars out of their country and burning their houses so that they can't return. The are putting them on trains and throwing them out of their country by the thousands every day. Kosovo is not the first time that he has done it either is it?

Answer me a few questions. Do you think that what they are doing to the Kosovars is right? If he suceeds without having to pay a heavy price, do you think that he will suddenly quit or do you think that he will move on to somewhere else?

I think that the actions of him and his people are reprehensable and that, if they are not stopped, they will just continue doing what they can get away with. What do you think Maja? Could you and your's be next?

If it's you and your country who are being killed or driven from their homes by the thousands, will it still be OK? Mabey then you would want someone to intervene and make him stop.

He needs to be stopped now, before it comes to your house. NATO will make sure that happens. I think that they are having a little problem with bridges, fuel, and electricity right now. It hasn't started good yet...

Bob,

Go slow on Maja. He/she has been behind the Iron Curtain for too long. They see conspiracies everywhere and insist that nothing - NOTHING - is what it appears to be.

Imagine if your world evolved around a magnificent conspiracy, and the free press is an instrument used to misinform you, and the only reliable source of information is Milosovic's State TV !

Bob, hate to tell you, but there were many before you who also made solid, well-informed and articulated arguements. But have you ever had the last word with an echo ?

Most gave up (I am still here, just monitoring - I'm part of the international conspiracy. Super Agent 86 a/k/a Maxwell Smart).

Do keep trying - take it as a learning experience, because the rethoric and twists of facts used are a replicas of Milosovic's best : black is white, high is low, good is bad, and ofcourse, bad is good. It is entertaining and educational because it gives an interesting insight into the human psyche.

Do bear in mind that a person convinced against his will will be of the same opinion still.

Maja
Good news : the war is over - you lost.
Bad news : NATO is not finished YET !

Jack London, I never lived behind the Iron Courtain. Read few history books. War is not over and NATO didn't win. They didn't achive any of their goals, expect killed civilians. Read the goals they announced at the begining and compare them with what they did. There is a little confusuion cause goals were chaning every other day.

Bob, there were more Serbs cleansed than Albanians. And nobody have a damn. Cause Serbs are demonized and the world doesn't care. One life is not worth the same as the other. Depends on what politicians think.
I am not avoiding anything. Serbs are defending their countries. The measuers they take were adopted to the situation they found themselves in.
You kill their innocent civilians they kill Albanian innocent civilians. And both of the wars they are fighting, with NATO and with Albanians, they didn't start. NATO started bombing them, they didn't announce the war on NATO. Albanians started killing Serbs and not vice versa.
And no we won't be next. We have already been through this. And you didn't see us running all around Europe crying for help. We stayed at home together with our brave young men who defended our country. As it turned out Milosevic didn't want our country, just our arms, cause we have the same army. Serbs never wanted any theritory where Serbs don't live. Like in the war with Croatia. They fought for Craina where almost all people were Serbs. They never wanted Zagreb, Istra or other places. They don't steal, they just don't want what is their to be stolen.

The basic point of my opinion is. They started fighting and wanted independance. The price of independance is always blood. Till they were fighting nobody have a damn about them. When they decided it is better if other people die for their independancy they have become victims. They don't deserve the independance.

What do you think Europe would be like if all the people of the countries Hitler occupied had fleed?
In my country five year old boys were "partizan postmen". Many have died some survived, but all stayed legends.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying Milosevic occupied Kosovo. You can not occupy your own teritory. Albanians ocuppied Kosovo. Why do you think Macedonia doesn't want Albanian refugees?
Think. They know they are next. They want the part of Macedonia asweell. Together with Kosovo Clinton wants to give them and Albania they will make a great Albania.

Maja,

When 80% of the population of any country (not simply 3 men in Texas) want independence, and they vote for it, you must learn to respect their opinion. THIS IS CALLED DEMOCRACY.

Do you know anything about the principles of Democracy, Freedom and Capitalism? Feel anything for them ? Why not allow the Kosovar Albanians to be independent ?

Believe me, they will be independent. Greater Serbia will be even smaller than expected. Maybe Serbs like you will stay in Slovenia, or maybe you should move to Kosovo to FILL IT UP and THEN call an election.

Maja, you didn't answer my question. So I'll rephrase it. Do you think that what they are doing to the Kosovars is right? A simple yes or no will do...

FRIEND JACK, that has nothing to do with democracy. There is no law in the world if there is a majority of people of one nationality they have a right to independance. You can not have ten kids per family became a majority and then claim somebody elses land. Plus imigrate from Albania, be illegaly in Yugoslavia and then claim you have a right to independance.

BOB, in war everything is fair and everything is right to defend your country. They started the war and now they are complaining. Although I feel sorry for them then got what they deserved and were asking for all along. Simple yes or no? Yes?

Call me a murderer, it wasn't me who started attacking Serbian police, they did. They didn't want peace they wanted indpenedance. Let them fight now. They knew Serbs won't give Kosovo away without a fight. Knowing the history they knew how hard they will fight. They should think twice before starting this.

OK...fair enough. So you do think that Malosovich is justified in what he is doing to the Kosovars. Then you start talking about a war.

What major battles have been fought in this war against the Kosovars? Have the Kosovars won any of them? What battles did they inflict moderate to heavy losses against Serbian forces?

If the war is against the KLA, why isn't he waging his war against them? Why is he attacking the civlian population? All I see are civilians being routed from their homes without much of a fight. I guess it's a good thing that we aren't doing the same thing in Belgrade. If we weren't being so careful to try not to kill civilians, this would be over by now.

Why would I call you a murderer? You don't live there and you aren't Serbian...right?

FRIEND JACK, that has nothing to do with democracy. There is no law in the world if there is a majority of people of one nationality they have a right to independance. You can not have ten kids per family became a majority and then claim somebody elses land. Plus imigrate from Albania, be illegaly in Yugoslavia and then claim you have a right to independance.

Maja, as one who lives in a democratic republic, let me explain something to you. In a democracy, majority rules. If it was a democracy and the majority of people had to vote for Malosovic in order for him to stay in power, he wouldn't be there now would he?

How a majority became a majority doesn't matter...

Maja's friend Jack says:
>>When 80% of the population of any country (not simply 3 men in Texas) want
independence, and they vote for it, you must learn to respect their opinion. THIS IS
CALLED DEMOCRACY. >Do you know anything about the principles of Democracy, Freedom and Capitalism? Feel
anything for them ? Why not allow the Kosovar Albanians to be independent ? <<

Humm, did the US permit South Carolina to be independent when it decided to leave the union?

Capitalism?- "Over the past year, over 2 million men, women, and children were homeless." An Example of Capitalism at its best in the US. Over 30% of those living below the poverty level in the US are children.

Freedom?- "Nearly one in three (32.2%) African American males in the age group 20-29 -- 827,440 -- is under criminal justice supervision on any given day -- in prison or jail, on probation or parole. In recent years, drug offenders have
represented the largest proportional growth of inmates nationally, increasing by 510% from an estimated 57,975 in 1983 to 353,564 in 1993. While African Americans constitute 13% of all drug users, they represent 35% of arrests for drug possession, 55% of convictions and 74% of prison sentences." The percentage of the US population that is African-American was estimated to be
12.7% as of Dec. 1, 1997.

A question for Jack's capitalistic, democratic mind,
Who is making most of the money on the illegal drug trade in the US? Blacks or whites? A larger % of black men are going to jail for it, but I would bet (knowing about this nation's history of underground criminal behavior) that the largest % of the illegal money is going into white hands in the end.
I love my country (USA), but this government is by no means a lilly white example for other nations to follow in the area of human rights.

The question isn't, "Is what is happening to the Kosovars right?" Of course it is not right! But the real question Jack should be asking himself is: Would the people of Kosovo have been better off if the NATO bombing would not have taken place? I think they would have been.
The bombing gave Milosevic an excuse to throw out foreign news reporters,close down what there was of the free press and free access to the outside world, and send troops and para-military forces in great numbers into Kosovo. It esculated the conflict and made it worse. It has also put great pressure on the countries that are close by who are themselves struggling to create a democracy and provide a decent standard of living for their people.
There are better methods we could have used to help the people of Kosovo. One of them would be to
set a good example. Would you like to have the police force in Kosovo follow the example of the New York City Police Department? Ask yourself the question, Is what the police in New York did to Amadou Diallo what you would advocate as an example for Serbian police?

Maja, not all Americans are as self-rightous as some you see posting on here. Some of us have read
about American History and have consuted more than the propaganda version we were fed in elementary school.

DdC,
What about all the biomass that is being discarded anually(corn,cotton,wheat,maize,etc.debris) that is not used for any other purpose. They may not produce as HIGH quality as hemp, but we wouldn,t be wasting land growing something that we already just discard(biomass). And !!!shut the f*c* up!!!!