Thank you both for the welcome back.
Nicolas is more interested in something else at the moment...
But, I'm here. =))

http://www.the-times.co.uk/cgi-bin/BackIssue?999


West abandons
dream of a unified
Kosovo

Tom Walker
A YEAR after Nato's
intervention, the
West's dream of
Serbs and Albanians
living together in
Kosovo is dead.
Diplomats openly
concede that monoethnic cantons are
the only solution to the province's
intractable hatred, with Serbs confined to
the north and vulnerable pockets in the
centre and south.

Tit-for-tat bloodshed in Mitrovica, an
industrial town where Serbs have been
allowed to drive thousands of Albanians
from their homes, has illustrated the
stark choices facing a territory where
Nato's Kfor troops and the United Nations
civilian administration have failed to beat
the rule of the gun and terrorism.

Western policy-makers have decided that
pragmatism must prevail over notions of
reconciliation and justice.

"There's no point banging on about it
while you can't speak Serbian in Pristina
without having your throat cut," said a
senior western diplomat. "The Serbs have
got to have somewhere to feel safe, and
it looks like being Mitrovica."

Albanians have staged angry
demonstrations against the tactics of
French Kfor troops in Mitrovica, and on
Friday they were reinforced by a
company from the Royal Green Jackets.
But the military objective in the town
remains to keep the two populations
separated.

Yesterday there was more trouble for
Kfor, as an American peacekeeper
recovered fron gunshot wounds he
received while on guard duty in Gnjilane,
and three Albanians were arrested after
shooting at Norwegian soldiers near the
Serbian community in Obilic. A Russian
vehicle also hit a Albanian landmine.

The diplomat, like many others, has run
out of patience with the Albanians, for
whom the Kosovo Liberation Army
continues to run amok. Between 400 and
700 Serbs have been murdered since last
summer.

Even Bernard Kouchner, the UN special
representative in Kosovo, who has
championed the concept of "peaceful co-
existence", has confided to aides that he
is "fed up" with the KLA leadership.

The current Serbian population in Kosovo
is estimated at between 70,000 and
100,000, less than half its pre-war total.
The UN believes that municipal elections,
planned for the late summer, will identify
the handful of Kosovo's 29 municipalities
where Serbs remain in the majority, and
that from these will be formed the
Mitrovica canton and two pockets -
probably around the monastery of
Gracanica in the centre and the ski resort
area of Strpce and Brezovica in the
south.

The acceptance of a fundamental failure
in the Kosovo mission coincides with
rising bellicosity in Belgrade. Slobodan
Milosevic, the Yugoslav president, and
his generals have eagerly reminded the
UN that, under its charter for Kosovo,
there is provision for the return of limited
numbers of Yugoslav army and Serbian
police units.

They have also pointed out that the UN's
mandate runs out in June, which the
Milosevic regime is billing as a cut-off
date for western intervention. In a recent
interview with the Politika daily,
Milosevic referred to Nato's presence as
"temporary".

General Nebojsa Pavkovic, head of
Yugoslavia's Third Army, meanwhile said
his troops would return to Kosovo,
probably in June, as authorised by an
agreement signed with Nato last year.
Diplomats rule out any reimposition of
authority from Belgrade, at least for as
long as Milosevic remains in power.

Ron Redmond, a spokesman for the UN
High Commissioner for Refugees
(UNHCR), said he feared many more
Albanians would leave northern Kosovo
as Serbian extremists there continued to
push for an ethnically "clean" chunk of
territory.

Officially, 650 Albanians have left the
area under Kfor escort, but the unofficial
figure is much higher. Some western
sources estimate several thousand
Albanians have moved over the past
week.

If Serbian cantons are established, Kfor's
work will become considerably easier
and more like that of its sister force in
Bosnia, where, despite five years of
peace, the Serbian, Croatian and Muslim
communities remain resolutely divided.

Not in connection with Kosovo, but very disturbing

Cyanide leak heads towards Danube killing
every living thing in its path

By Adam LeBor in Budapest

14 February 2000


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Europe/2000-02/cyanide140200.shtml

http://www.the-times.co.uk/cgi-bin/BackIssue?999


February 11
2000
EUROPE





US bombing
leaves British
troops in tents

BY MICHAEL EVANS, DEFENCE EDITOR
BRITISH soldiers are still huddled in
tents in a bleak Kosovo winter because
the barracks earmarked for them were
blown to bits by the Americans.

The British-led Nato ground force had
planned to use vacated Serb military
barracks for accommodation and staff
headquarters, but the Americans
insisted on destroying them during the
78-day air campaign, placing them high
on the list of targets for Tomahawk
cruise missiles, precision-guided
weapons and 1,000lb bombs.

The main Serb barracks in Pristina,
which could have been used by
Lieutenant-General Sir Mike Jackson,
commander of Nato's Allied Rapid
Reaction Corps (ARRC), as his
headquarters, was hit so many times
that not a single building was left
standing.

While British officers accepted that the
destruction of the barracks looked
good on video, they saw little point in
destroying buildings that were empty
of Serb personnel. Before the Nato air
campaign began, it became obvious
that the Serb military and Ministry of
Interior police (MUP) in Kosovo were
deserting all the main barracks, in the
expectation that they would be prime
targets for Nato bombers.

By the time the ground forces went in
on June 12 last year, there was
nowhere for them to sleep. The whole
force resorted to tents. Ironically, the
Americans are now living in specially
constructed huts while the British are
still awaiting construction of their
accommodation.

The clash between American target
selectors and the ground force
commanders emerged yesterday at a
conference in London of senior British
military officers, meeting to examine
lessons learnt from the Kosovo
campaign. The problem, they said, was
that the American commanders in
charge of the air campaign largely
ignored the entreaties of ground
campaign commanders who were
trying to think ahead to when the
bombing had stopped.

http://edm.ais.co.uk/weblink/html/motion.html/ref=75


House of Commons



TREATMENT OF SERBS IN CROATIA
23.11.99
Mahon/Alice

That this House condemns the blatant discrimination shown against Serbs and other
ethnic minorities by the Government of Croatia; is particularly concerned at the
increasing visible difference in the progress of house repairs between Croat areas
such as Karlovac where all houses are repaired, to Donjilapac, a Serb area where none
are repaired and Serbs, some elderly, are living in garages and huts adjacent to the
ruins of their burnt-out houses and that these temporary dwellings are often unheated;
notes the lack of job opportunities, the lack of free basic health care, non-availability
of secondary education or income to Serb returnees; believes it is wrong to allow
Croatians from Bosnia to vote in the Croatian December elections and also in the
Bosnian elections, while Serb returnees to Croatia will not be allowed to vote in either
Croatia or Serbia; and believes the Croatian Government is deliberately creating an
ethnically pure state in Croatia.

http://www.kforonline.com/news/updates/nu_13feb00.htm


Deaths
Yesterday evening in Pec (MNB West), an Albanian reported to
KFOR Military Police that his brother had been killed in a revenge
killing. An investigation is underway.

Just after midnight this morning in Kosuric (MNB West), KFOR
troops arrested an Albanian man for murder. He had shot another
man during an argument. In the suspects house the soldiers
found 1 AK-47 rifle, a second rifle and ammunition. UNMIK police
are investigating.

Demonstrations
Two demonstrations were held in Kosovo yesterday.

In Decane, between noon and 1:15 p.m., approximately 1000
Albanians protested in support of their fellows in Mitrovica, and in
Gnjilane 3,500 gathered for the same purpose.

Incidents and Injuries
During the night, KFOR soldiers detained 11 people in MNB South
for various crimes. Two are suspected of murder, six of burglary,
two for looting, and one for illegal weapons possession.

On Friday night near the town of Rajanavoca Cuka (MNB East),
KFOR Russian troops were shot at from the bushes. The KFOR
troops returned fire. The unidentified men were able to escape,
but they left behind one anti-tank rocket, two hand grenades, and
one AK-47 magazine. KFOR is investigating.

Weapons Confiscations
Yesterday morning, KFOR troops searched a house in Preece
(MNB Centre) and confiscated 1 AK-47, two automatic rifles, one
pistol, a hand grenade, and ammunition. UNMIK police detained
one man.

Yesterday afternoon in Durkovce (MNB Centre), KFOR Finnish
troops confiscated one pistol and a dangerous knife at a vehicle
check point. UNMIK police are investigating.

Yesterday morning in Pepsa (MNB West), KFOR troops searched
an Albanian house and confiscated one AK-47, one machine gun
and ammunition. The man was arrested and UNMIK police are
investigating.

Yesterday afternoon in Pacaj (MNB West), an Albanian man
handed over one AK-47 and a quantity of ammunition.

Illegal Border Crossing
Yesterday in MNB South, a total of 13 people tried to cross the
Albania-Kosovo border illegally. Five were forced back by KFOR
patrols but eight were able to elude the authorities

Daniela:

Your link to the cyanide spill story is incomplete. Please repeat & complete. Thanks.

Pete

Pete,
it works fine. Try again.

forwarded for all interested brothers and sisters - in our father Adam:

[SNIP]

Attention of: Acting Russian presidedent Putin

I thought I should include a statement which I heard on a radio program today - on station WESB . On the subject of morality: A Doctor Laura Schlesinger stated that since Communism is based on Atheism and Darwinism and that people raised as Communists , which believe that every one weak and less productive and less fortunate should be eliminated (which I might add, the Russians are practicing right now) the die hard Communist that is born and bred or indoctrinated do not see themselves as having any need to practice morality since they are answerable to no one greater outside themselves. Also Doctor Laura stated that TRUTH in Communism is what ever serves it best.

I mentioned this statement because you may be able to convince certain Doctors to attest that many Russians seriously do not realize there actions in Chechnya as immoral since they have not been schooled or indoctrinated in the same way as many of us who were at some point in our lives taught morality through our various religions which teaches us that at some point we are morally responsible toward our fellow brothers (human beings) in as far as respecting individual rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness no matter where we live on this planet and no matter what state the social and economic circumstances may be. That if the problem is not resolved - peacefully or otherwise - in Chechnya today then Russians, for generations to come, will be predators toward all weaker nations.(as they, the Russians, are justified by the only indoctrinated truth which they have been raised under
for- at least - the last 50 years).

You may wish to point out to western authorities that there is a large population of highly indoctrinated and Ambitious (Russians some of whom are also atheist, Communist and Darwinist) leaders who are - not only willing, but determined - to put in to practice what they have been taught for years. These Russians are determined to pray upon and against any individual and any group of people which may show any -slight - sign of weakness of any kind.

If you approach the western leaders with this truth and show the historical patterns behind leaders such as the current ones in Russia then demonstrate that in Communist regimes the most likely direction the population is likely to be lead or follow (after Communism has fallen) is that of FASCISM.

Fascists basically test the opponents and the opponents allies - little by little - infringing on peoples
rights to life and liberties and that of the weaker individuals, and that of groups and then that of whole nations - one by one - singling them out by intimidation and threats, and then will come force, and
- inevitably - the process of elimination begins.

It dose not matter to the Atheistic Communist or Fascist, state or individual, who is eliminated in their path to supremacy and eventual rule since they have no conscience moral values or even feeling toward the weak, because, they are become just as Darwin had observed in the Animal kingdom. Animals are territorial, competitive, and predatory since Animals do not posses intelligence, or awareness of right and wrong, or a will to resist what we call temptations from our desires and ambitions which may easily become corrupted with out moral practice.

However there is hope for any human to go through reform. As you and I, and other morally trained individuals know that: In order to bring any individual or group under reform, of any kind, there will be resistance due to lack of understandings, on the part of those to be reformed, and the unnecessary fears in the unfamiliarity and insecurities of the - now - new unknowns to the unfortunate Atheist, Fascist and or Communist.

All these educational qualities and values have been removed from the masses (in Russia or in any other atheistic country) from within their school system, from early childhood, and from the older generation, by force and or by fear of persecution, that if they - the citizens - (or better defined as subjects of the state) were ever reported or, by the slip of the tong, found to have attended Church or taught others within the privacy of their homes (about morality or religion or God) they would be subject to elimination or punishment in order to preserve the doctrine which the ruling parties (of the first days) truly thought would be the doctrine for the ruling parties and their citizens (or subjects) liberation from what ever adversity which may one day face their people and or - ultimately - mankind as a whole.

Unfortunately for those Atheists, Communists and Fascists, who chose ignorance - not by will but through fear - and through the lack of knowledge - at a high cost to themselves - (even that of their own deaths) in what they truly see as self defense and or self preservation through predatory behaviors {as was taught to them}) for fear that others in the world see every thing as they do may be out to dominate and eventually destroy the balance of all remaining atheists, Communists, etc.

Fortunately for the ones who survive the resistance - of the uneducated unfortunates - and fortunately for those who chose to observe and see and understand and share - their newly found enlightenment - there will be ample time to recover as fully reformed individuals with faith and morals. Those who chose their newly found fortune - in knowledge - and faith - which teaches morality to them can now pursue and seek out and eventually find their basic freedom to life liberty and the pursuit of their happiness.

Pete,

I was just going through the archives for last May/June and read a number of your posts. I'm curious if subsequent events in Kosovo and revelations about NATO have altered your opinions or tempered your support of the attack on Yugoslavia since then.

This isn't an attack, just a friendly query.

T'gunns

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/justincol.html

T-guns:

I had very mixed emotions about the attacks from the outset. I cannot condone what the Serbian government was doing to the Albanians, but on the other hands two wrongs never make right. I don't think I ever really supported the attacks, though I did try to keep abreast of what was going on. It was hard to tell what the whole truth was in the matter, unfortunately the truth is usually one of the first casualties of any war. I'm sure there were enough lies on both sides to go all the way around. Looking back with 20-20 hindsight, I think it would have been better if the US and NATO had stayed out of the fray, and what was done I think could have been handled much better. I don't think we accomplished anything worthwhile by trying to bomb Yugoslavia back to the stone age.
-0-
Guess you have been following the big cyanide spill from Romania, news reports saying all life in the Tizsa river has been killed, all the way to the Danube. I'm curious what effect this has had on life in areas of Yugoslavia these rivers flow through. Any comments?

Pete,

Only that the cyanide has gone into the Yugoslav portion of the Danube and is head back into Romania. Also, I read somewhere that heavy metal contaminants have also been discovered flowing into the Danube, indicating that someone, somewhere is using the cyanide spill as cover for dumping contaminants with the potential of much longer lasting and more devastating results - e.g., long-term soil and groundwater contamination.

Could be industrial scumbags, could be sabotage. Who knows? In this world today nothing is surprising.

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 09:33 pm:

---

Original Message

---

To: President of Russia
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 2:30 PM
Subject: RUSSIAN SUBVERSION THROUGH MIS-EDUCATION

MILLIONS OF THE WORLDS INHABITANTS (ESPECIALLY EDUCATED RUSSIANS AND NON -
RUSSIANS, REAL CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS AND JEWS OF DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES) ARE
COMPLETELY AWARE OF PUTINS' RELENTLESS PURSUIT TO DOMINATE AND RULE (NOT
WITHSTANDING ELIMINATION OF THE DEFENSELESS CIVILIANS WHO ARE DEPENDENT ON
PENSIONS AND SUBSIDIES FROM THE SO-CALLED FATHER LAND RUSSIA) MINORITIES IN
RUSSIA. (given a chance or a hint of weak spot on the planet is a target of Russia too)

HISTORY BOOKS ARE FILLED WITH ACCOUNTS OF RUSSIAN SUBVERSION THROUGH
MIS-EDUCATION OF ITS OWN CITIZENS. HISTORIANS HAVE RECORDED AND DOCUMENTED
CENTURIES AND DECADES OF FACTS WITH RESPECT TO RUSSIAN RESTRAINS ON THE
FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND RELIGION AND THE FREEDOM OF A PERSONS' RIGHT TO LIFE
AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS AND ABOVE ALL THE RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS OF LAW
WHEN A CITIZEN (OR EVEN AN ALIEN) IS ACCUSED OF A CRIME.

RUSSIAN MIS-EDUCATION PROGRAMS ARE DESIGNED TO PERPETUATE THEIR CONTINUED
DOMINATION OVER A PEOPLE THEY VIEW AS SUBSERVIENT. THE SUBSERVIENT CARRY OUT
THE WISH OF THE OPPRESSIVE RULERS. THE MIS-EDUCATION PROCESS HAS EFFECTIVELY
REMOVED THE NATURAL TENDENCY TO ESTABLISH INSTITUTIONS IN THE INTEREST OF
INDIVIDUALS OR A SELF, BUT RATHER IN THE PROTECTION AND INTEREST OF OTHERS
INCLUDED THE RULING PARTY OR "THE FAMILY".

WHEN VIEWED FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE OPPRESSED PEOPLE, THE OPPRESSIVE
TREATMENT WHICH THEY RECEIVED COULD BE CONSIDERED SUFFICIENT MOTIVE FOR
INTENSE ANGER AND A DESIRE FOR "REVENGE".

IN CONCLUSION TO THIS STATEMENT (AT THIS TIME) I SUBMIT THAT PUTINS' NEW
RUSSIA AND ITS' ACTIONS IN CHECHNYA IS INDICATIVE OF AN ENRAGED COLONIZER OR
SLAVE MASTER WHO IS SUBJECTING ITS' SLAVES TO PUNISHMENT UP TO NEAR
EXTERMINATION!

I SUBMIT THAT PUTIN AND HIS PARTY'S ACTIONS AGAINST THE CHECHENS ARE TARGETED
TO ELIMINATE THE GROUPS OF CHECHENS WHICH HAVE POSED A THIRST FOR
INDEPENDENCE AND SELF RULE. THESE GROUPS (ACCORDING TO PUTIN) ARE ALMOST ALL
MALES BETWEEN THE AGE OF 10 TO 65 WHO THE SLAVE MASTERS CLAIM POSE THE MOST
LEVEL OF THREAT (TO PUTINS' SPECIAL FAMILY OF RUSSIANS) SINCE THEY (10 TO 65
YEAR OLDS) HAVE BEEN "CONTAMINATED BY REAL EDUCATION".

YOUNG GIRLS AND WOMEN ARE BEING RAPED BY RUSSIANS (WHOLESALE) IN ORDER TO
HUMILIATE THEM AND THE REMAINING MALES. ANOTHER PURPOSE FOR THIS IS TO
DEMONSTRATE THE RULE OF THE ROD OF THE MASTER IS HERE TO STAY.

MORE TO FOLLOW IN DAYS TO COME.
JISBOND

Reference material from Dr. James H. Rasheed, Ph.D.

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 152.167.4.130) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:00 pm:

WHERE IS L'MNIEXE???LOL..., I GUESS HE IS IN SCHOOL...., BEING, OF THE UN-EDUCATED
VARIETY!!

....WHER EIS COALITION??I HAVE MISSION FOR THEM...URN...HAIRY-MARY...SULEYMAN...,
TALK TO ME, BIG-CHIEFS??HOWS IT HANGING..WHATS NEW..., HOW CAN WE MAKE
PEACE......(-:

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 152.167.4.130) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:06 pm:

Jisbond.., i see that you, also..suffer from memory-Loss!!!chechyna..had their
Independence...., but Instead..,they wanted, Province, apart from Russia.., this is NOT
Feasible.., this is like..Texas, in USA..ASKING TO SPLIT FROM USA, TO
MEXICO??Apparently.., you are either muslim..., or support Chechyna.., because you make
Erroneous comments, about the Truth!Chechyna was warned, before Troops went there,
but , Instead..these so-called 'REBELS'..., Decided to Bomb Innocent civilians.., so I
,say..they got what was coming to them..have a NICE-DAY (-:

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 152.167.4.130) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:13 pm:

History Lesson, for Jisbond over there....:

Ok, Organization of Russian States, was Created, to Give Provinces, More Opportunity, at
Self-Rule, but Only as a Province, AND NOT, AS SEPARATIST STATE!!

Much like Democracy of Western Hemisphere, in which, Different States, have Different
Legislatory practice, they are STILL HELD, ACCOUNTBALE ,BY FEDERALIZED FORM OF
GOVERNMENT, for Example.., in USA.., Each State has Own Constitution,and state
assemblies... However, they also must Answer to Federal Part of Government, to Comply
with all Govt. Practice!In-Theory, and Practice, this is HOW MAJORITY OF WORLD IS
ORGANIZED.., BUT , HISTORICALLY, THE MUSLIM, HAS SOUGHT TO SET GEOGRAPHICAL
AREAS, OUTSIDE OF FEDERALIZED RULE...., Resulting in Anarchistic Fervor, and
Terrorism...Lebanon..west Bank...etc..etc...

..PAY ME LATER, FOR THIS GOVT. , i.e., History lesson....(-:

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:32 pm:

To: True Russian:
I do not recall seeing any place in the History Books where Chechnya or Chechens ever
voluntarily joined the Russian federation.

Thanks for comments.

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:42 pm:

One only has to look at Russian history and see how The Russians have dealt with
oppositions in the Past. I received a report recently that Putin actually said that(He
Putin)would make war
against God to win this war against all Chechens! ( I will find the source and forward it
later jisbond)

Russians should study their Past before Divining the future any people. Not much good in
way of politics has ever come out of Russia except for bad ideology and bad politics after
many of their wars. It may be said Russians have made bigger weapons and invaded more
ethnic territories even so they do today - with their cousins in the Bolkans too.

Read Russian Political and military History: (two sights ~ search for more. jisbond)
http://www.mmmfiles.com/20tha03.htm
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/his1f.htm

By Antonio ( - 209.239.217.28) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:53 pm:

Turkish Mohammedans expose each others' gruesome bloodthirst.

A Mohammedan pattern of using women and children as human shields revealed.

---

Turkish minister: Militants used human shields 02/15/2000

Associated Press Newswires
02/15/2000

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Turkey's interior minister claimed Tuesday that Islamic militants
used women and children as human shields in gunbattles against police which left 10 dead.


The fighting was the bloodiest since police launched a massive crackdown against the
Hezbollah group which aims to form an Islamic state in the mostly Kurdish southeast. The
militants are not linked to the Lebanese group of the same name.

Five policemen and five Hezbollah militants were killed in two separate shootouts Monday in
the southeastern city of Van. Initial reports said only three gunmen were killed, but police
Tuesday
raised that count to five.

Interior Minister Sadettin Tantan accused the militants of keeping women and children in
their hideouts as human shields, the Anatolia news agency reported.

"That is why police were acting shy and as a result police were killed," the agency quoted
Tantan as saying.

National Police Chief Turan Genc, who is in China with Tantan, said police saw the
silhouettes of women and children in the
windows of the houses.

It was not clear if the women and children were family members and were living in the
houses with the men.

Police said Tuesday that the militants hurled grenades at police and opened fire with
automatic rifles. The dead militants included
a regional commander and a leader of the group's armed wing.

Police have carried out several raids against Hezbollah in recent weeks, but Monday was
the first time the two sides battled since police killed Huseyin Velioglu, the leader of
Hezbollah's militant wing, in January.

Police have detained more than 1,000 suspected Hezbollah militants and unearthed more
than 50 bodies of presumed victims of the group.

By Turk ( - 203.28.207.171) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:54 pm:

>>>By igor ( - 206.47.244.62) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 09:01 pm:

Turk I will not be a hypocrite.I can not stand any of your kind especially the Chechens and
as far as I am concerned any able bodied men left in those areas are fighters because why
else would they stay.The civilians in the villages that they are fighting in have had 6
months to leave so if they help bandits FUUUCK EM >>>

Igor,
That makes you a much better person than either DINGO (should I say Dimitri), or IBNE
UMAR. Well done for deciding not to be a hypocrite. . I respect people who come forward
for either good or bad.

Yes, I don't agree with what you are saying, and that's make you one of my enemy, but
atleast you are saying what you think.

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:55 pm:

TO THE WHOLE WORLD:

GUILTY RUSSIANS FEAR NOTHING!
& RUSSIAN LIES ARE AN ECHO OF HITLERS' VOICE AND HIS CRONIES.

IF THE RUSSIAN OFFICIALS CLAIM THAT ALL ALLEGATIONS OF
HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, COMMITTED BY THE RUSSIANS,
AGAINST CHECHENS ARE FALSE ~ THEN ANY ONE CAN DEDUCE,
BASED ON COMMON SENSE, THAT THE RUSSIANS ARE EITHER
SAINTS OR LIARS THEMSELVES!!

MY COMMON SENSE TELLS ME: RUSSIAN DENIALS OF TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE WRONG
DOING AND BY DISALLOWING INDEPENDENT MONITORS - IN - TO INVESTIGATE THE
ALLEGED CRIMES IS ENOUGH TO CONVINCE ANY THINKING PERSON THAT RUSSIANS MUST
BE TRYING TO HOLD INSPECTORS - OUT LONG ENOUGH - TO COVER ANY TRAIL OF
EVIDENCE
WHICH COULD INCRIMINATE THE RUSSIANS THEMSELVES!
REGARDS
jisbond

---

Kai Ivari wrote:

By Michael Steen
MOSCOW, Feb 17
(Reuters) - Russia
protested to the United States on Thursday over its talks with a Chechen official as
pressure mounted on Moscow to answer international accusations that its military had
violated human rights in Chechnya.

The U.N. high commissioner for human rights, Mary Robinson, said on Wednesday that
Mosco should safeguard basic human rights, citing allegations that the military had
committed indiscriminate bombing, executions and rape against civilians.

Moscow has denied abuses during its operation to eradicate separatist rebels in the North
Caucasian region.

For its part, the Foreign Ministry released a statement describing a meeting this week
between U.S. officials and a Chechen envoy, Seilam Beshayev, as "absolutely
unacceptable".
The State Department said the talks concerned mainly humanitarian issues.

Russia had yet to respond to Robinson. The Kremlin's Chechnya spokesman, Sergei
Yastrzhembsky, was due to hold a news conference at 1200 GMT, after canceling his daily
briefing on Wednesday.

Nearly five months into the conflict, Russian forces have seized most of Chechnya's
lowlands including the capital Grozny and are now battling up to 8,000 remaining guerrillas
in the southern mountains.

RUSSIAN PEOPLE BACK 'ANTI-TERRORIST OPERATION' The campaign remains popular
among
Russians. A new survey by pollsters VTsIOM, quoted by RIA news agency, said 70 percent
of those questioned supported the "anti-terrorist operation". The rebels have threatened
to stage hit-and-run attacks in Russian-held areas. Moscow has sealed off Grozny and said
Interior Ministry troops are
tracking down any rebels hiding in the civilian population throughout Chechnya.

Human rights groups and some Western media have criticized Moscow's use of detention
centers as part of that operation.

The centers, also called "filtration camps", are used for interrogating suspects.

Ruslan, 20, a refugee in a tent camp at Sleptsovsk just outside Chechnya, told Reuters
Television
on Wednesday he had been held at one such camp for 21 days.
"They poisoned us with gas. There were three (other) men in the ward. They can't hear
anything because their ears were damaged... Their hands are broken, their teeth are
broken too.

"Their mouths were sliced," he said, drawing a line across his own lips. "I still had 95
percent of my health when I left the camp. Others who were with me are totally crippled."

Ruslan said he was held at Chernokozovo, a camp 50 kms (30miles) north of Grozny which
a London weekly newspaper, the Observer, has dubbed "the factory of death".

'BLATANT LIES' Russia's deputy justice minister has denied there were any abuses at
Chernokozovo, calling reports of torture "blatant lies".

Yastrzhembsky has said European monitors will be allowed to visit the detention centre.
New York-based Human Rights Watch has said it has collected testimonies confirming the
deaths of 41 Chechen civilians at the hands of Russian soldiers. Russian authorities said
Human Rights Watch had been misled by rebel propaganda.

In Geneva, Robinson cited allegations of civilian executions and rapes of Chechen women
by Russian
forces. She said reports had also been shown to her by the International Committee of the
Red Cross,
which helps victims of conflict. In a statement issued after Russian authorities turned
down her request to visit
Chechnya, the U.N. human rights overseer spoke of a "catastrophic situation facing
civilians (there)".

Russia said talks at the State Department in Washington on Monday with the Chechen
representative presented an unfriendly step and it expected Washington to refrain from
such contacts in future.

Meanwhile, Russian forces in the icy mountains of southern Chechnya appeared intent on
wearing down the rebels with long range weapons before launching a final assault on bases
located mostly in steep ravines.

Interfax news agency quoted the military as saying its aviation had flown 63 combat
missions with jets and attack helicopters in the past 24 hours but was restrained by bad
weather.

Interfax also reported fighting on heights surrounding either end of the Argun gorge, which
Russian troops have blocked. The rebel website Kavkaz.org said fighting was intensifying in
the area.

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:58 pm:

To: Turk
A report was put up about the blind who could not leave Chechnya.
will find report and post it later.

thanks for comments.

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:02 pm:

Jisbond..see, thats MY POINT, EXACTLY!!!If they could Live in this region, for Thousands
of years, then why do they want separate state??Ill TELL YOU WHY...., BECAUS E THEY
ARE TERRORISTS, AND WANT TO FURTHER THEIR MUSLIM-HERITAGE...STUDY ISLAMIC
RELIGION.., AND COME SEE ME!!


/...THEY SEE ISRAEL..GIVING UP, LAND.., SO THEY TAKE ATTITUDE..OF ..WHY NOT SEEK
TO TAKE LAND, LIKE LEBANESE, AND ..ALL THOSE WHO..., PLUS THEY SEE KOSOVO
PARTITIONED.., AND THEY WANT , WHAT THEY HAVE.., HOWEVER..., THIS SI NOT THE
WESTERN HEMISPHERE..'ROGUE-STATES'..HAVE NO POLITICAL AFFECTION'S, IN THIS PART
OF THE WORLD!!!

....ALL DOWN THRU HISTORY, THE MUSLIM, HAS CRIED OUT,FOR PREFERENTIAL
TREATMENT.., AND WHEN THEY DONT RECEIVE., THEY ATTEMPT TO OVERTHROW.., and
take lands--->i.e, LEBANON..ALBANIA....IRAQ..IRAN..,Kosovo,croatia.. TURKEY..District of
Columbia...SHOULD I SAY MORE??

...THE CHECHYN ..WILL NEVER LIVE IN PEACE, IN RUSSIA..'EVER AGAIN'...THEY HAD
CHANCE OF INDEPENDENCE.., BUT THEY ASKED FOR TOO MUCH..

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:12 pm:

I do not recall any place in History books where the land belonged to Russia to give to the
Chechens who have been there from time immemorial.

Muslims Bible: Gospel of Jesus according to his first disciple Barnabas: http://barnabas.net/


Islamic history is not about territory but about stamping out imported immorality which
threatens its children.

thanks for your observations and comments

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:13 pm:

BIG DOG...ALWAYS EATS LITTLE DOG..THIS IS UN-DENIABLE....

Jisbond..is Obvious BLIND TO TRUTH!!!!The Coverup...NATO PLAYED OUT IN
KOSOVO..WONT WORK , HERE IN RUSSIA...MY FRIEND!!MADELEINE COWBRIGHT..CANT GET
SUPPORT, FOR EVEN ATTEMPTING TO COME HERE...LOL

...I PRAY FOR OUR SERBIAN BROTHERS'.., AND MAY THEY TAKE BACK..WHAT IS ,
"RIGHTFULLY THEIRS"!!!.., SOONER...RATHER THAN LATER.., THEN COME WITH YOUR
TRINKET-WEARING IDEALOGY, OF PROSPERITY, AND CAPITALISM/GREED..LOOK HOW EAST
GERMANY..WITHERED...'AFTER' BERLIN WALL CAME DOWN!!YOU KNOW WHY??BECAUSE
WESTERN BUSINESSES..TOOK THEIR LAND, WHICH THEY COULDN'T KEEP!!!
"CAPITALISM..ONLY WORKS, WHERE, THE OPPORTUNITY, FOR GREED EXISTS..."that was
by Karl Marx..by the way, in case you didnt know!

GREED HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE DEVIL.., AND IN AND OUT OF HIS HAND, HAS ALWAYS
EMERGED..DEATH & DESTRUCTION...OLDER U.S.S.R., WAS MUCH BETTER OFF, THAN
ORGANIZATION OF RUSSIAN STATES..THIS IS FACT.., AND ALSO..WHY, HARDLINERS'..ARE
COMING , BACK TO POWER!!!

CHECHYNS'..SHOULD BE THANKFUL, THAT COMPASSION, HAS BEEN GIVEN THEM!THE
U.S.A., WOULD HAVE TAKEN LAND....USED IT FOR OWN 'GREED'.., OR WHAT THEY
CALL..'HUMANITARIAN-CARE'..THIS IS A JOKE!!!THAT WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING, HAS
NEVER BEEN MORE EXPOSED TO THE WORLD.., AND HER TIME COMES...."SOON"

By Antonio ( - 209.239.213.239) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:14 pm:

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 152.167.4.130) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 10:06 pm:

>Jisbond.., i see that you, also..suffer from
>memory-Loss!!!chechyna..had their
>Independence...., but Instead..,they wanted,
>Province, apart from Russia.., this is NOT
>Feasible.., this is like..Texas, in USA..ASKING
>TO SPLIT FROM USA, TO MEXICO??

Texas is not in the USA. Texas is an inseparable part of New Spain, as is Mexico, New
Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Utah, and Colorado.

The United States regime is an illegal criminal regime, a Racketeer Influenced Corrupt
Organization (RICO), and has no legal right to exist. In fact, the U.S.A. is not a country,
but a corporation chartered in England.

Just as the Jewish Entity occupying Palestine and the Turkish Beast occupying Western
Armenia and Eastern Byzantium, have no right to exist, so also the Illuminati/Masonic U.S.
Great Satan has no right to exist.

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:20 pm:

To True Russian:
Just like I wrote to Mr. Putin about animal behavior.

Attention: Mr. Putin

Dear Sir:
I thought I should include a statement which I heard on a radio program today on WESB
today. on the subject of morality: A Doctor Laura Schlesinger stated that since
Communism is based on Atheism and Darwinism and that people raised as Communists ,
which believe that every one weak and less productive and less fortunate should be
eliminated (which I might add, the Russians are practicing right now) the die hard
Communist that is born and bred or indoctrinated do not see themselves as having any
need to practice morality since they are answerable to no one greater outside themselves.
Also Doctor Laura stated that TRUTH in Communism is what ever serves it best.

I mentioned this statement because you may be able to convince certain Doctors to
attest that many Russians seriously do not realize there actions in Chechnya as immoral
since they have not been schooled or indoctrinated in the same way as many of us who
were at some point in our lives taught morality through our various religions which teaches
us that at some point we are morally responsible toward our fellow brothers (human
beings) in as far as respecting individual rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness
no matter where we live on this planet and no matter what state the social and economic
circumstances may be. That if the problem is not resolved - peacefully or otherwise - in
Chechnya today then Russians, for generations to come, will be predators toward all
weaker nations.(as they, the Russians, are justified by the only indoctrinated truth which
they have been raised under
for- at least - the last 50 years).

You may wish to point out to western authorities that there is a large population of highly
indoctrinated and Ambitious (Russians some of whom are also atheist, Communist and
Darwinist) leaders who are - not only willing, but determined - to put in to practice what
they have been taught for years. These Russians are determined to pray upon and against
any individual and any group of people which may show any -slight - sign of weakness of
any kind.

If you approach the western leaders with this truth and show the historical patterns
behind leaders such as the current ones in Russia then demonstrate that in Communist
regimes the most likely direction the population is likely to be lead or follow (after
Communism has fallen) is that of FASCISM.

Fascists basically test the opponents and the opponents allies - little by little - infringing
on peoples
rights to life and liberties and that of the weaker individuals, and that of groups and then
that of whole nations - one by one - singling them out by intimidation and threats, and
then will come force, and
- inevitably - the process of elimination begins.

It dose not matter to the Atheistic Communist or Fascist, state or individual, who is
eliminated in their path to supremacy and eventual rule since they have no conscience
moral values or even feeling toward the weak, because, they are become just as Darwin
had observed in the Animal kingdom. Animals are territorial, competitive, and predatory
since Animals do not posses intelligence, or awareness of right and wrong, or a will to
resist what we call temptations from our desires and ambitions which may easily become
corrupted with out moral practice.

However there is hope for any human to go through reform. As you and I, and other
morally trained individuals know that: In order to bring any individual or group under reform,
of any kind, there will be resistance due to lack of understandings, on the part of those to
be reformed, and the unnecessary fears in the unfamiliarity and insecurities of the - now -
new unknowns to the unfortunate Atheist, Fascist and or Communist.

All these educational qualities and values have been removed from the masses (in Russia or
in any other atheistic country) from within their school system, from early childhood, and
from the older generation, by force and or by fear of persecution, that if they - the
citizens - (or better defined as subjects of the state) were ever reported or, by the slip of
the tong, found to have attended Church or taught others within the privacy of their
homes (about morality or religion or God) they would be subject to elimination or
punishment in order to preserve the doctrine which the ruling parties (of the first days)
truly thought would be the doctrine for the ruling parties and their citizens (or subjects)
liberation from what ever adversity which may one day face their people and or -
ultimately - mankind as a whole.

Unfortunately for those Atheists, Communists and Fascists, who chose ignorance - not by
will but through fear - and through the lack of knowledge - at a high cost to themselves -
(even that of their own deaths) in what they truly see as self defense and or self
preservation through predatory behaviors {as was taught to them}) for fear that others in
the world see every thing as they do may be out to dominate and eventually destroy the
balance of all remaining atheists, Communists, etc.

Fortunately for the ones who survive the resistance - of the uneducated unfortunates -
and fortunately for those who chose to observe and see and understand and share - their
newly found enlightenment - there will be ample time to recover as fully reformed
individuals with faith and morals. Those who chose their newly found fortune - in
knowledge - and faith - which teaches morality to them can now pursue and seek out and
eventually find their basic freedom to life liberty and the pursuit of their happiness.

Best Regards As Your Brother In Our Father Adam.
jisbond

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:22 pm:

Jisbond...., the cry for Independence, for Chechyns, waS ONLY HEARD..FROM TERRORISTS
BOMBS!!

..WHERE WERE..THESE SO-CALLED PEACE-LOVING RELIGIOUS PEOPLE , WHEN CHILDREN
WERE KILLED IN HOTELS', IN MOSCOW????


HISTORY OF RUSSIA..HAS ALWAYS HAD THESE PEOPLE, THIS IS TRUE..., BUT NEVER, HAS
THE STATE OF RUSSIA..., BECOME PARTITIONED, INTO SEPARATE TERRITORIES, AS IT IS
TODAY.., SO I SAY TO YOU, Jisbond..'why dont they live in same peace, they enjoyed,
1000 yrs. ago???I TELL YOU WHY NOW:

Islam is Opposed to Christianity, this is a Truth, that has killed Millions, thoughout history
of world, and the Chechyns', only the terrosits..(not the Civlilians), see , what the U.N.
Criminals do, and ask..why cant we get AID.., How come WEST WONT BOMB THESE
HORRIBLE RUSSIANS'???....

ANOTHER TRUTH IS THIS:

IT IS PROVEN..THAT CHECHYN TERRORISTS, RECEIVE MONEY, FROM DRUGLORDS, AND
IRAN, AND TURKEY, TO FURTHER THEIR BID TO GRAB LAND!!!THIS WONT WORK , HER EIN
RUSSIA..., AND IT DOES NOT SETLE WITH THE WESTERN WORLD, THAT THEY 'CANNOT'
CONTROL A COUNTRY, THAT WAS FOUNDED..IN HISTORY, WHILE THEY DIDNT EVEN
EXIST!!!

MADELINE COWBRIGHT..CANNOT CHANGE OUR PEOPLES'!!

...THE U.N. COMES TO RUSSIA TO BOMB, FOR SO-CALLED HUMANITARIAN REASONS...,
THEN THE LIARS OF THE USA, AND BRITAIN AND U.N., WILL BE MET WITH A
FORCE...UNSEEN IN OUR LIFETIME...THANKLS FOR YOUR COMMENTS...

By Turk ( - 203.28.207.171) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:25 pm:

DINGO (Dimitri)

If only you were not a HYPOCRITE, you would have some credibility. Here is a moron,
concerned about alleged suffering of Kurds at the hands of Turks, yet he is one of the
most ardent supporters of Russia's war crimes in Chechnya.

You are nothing, a nobody, an ukranian jew. You are pro Russian not because you
particularly adore Russians, but because you are afraid of Muslims.

You must be having nightmares. If the fighting skills, and willingness to wage Jihad
penetrates to Muslim masses, your little jewish state will be a history. That is what you
are afraid of, and that is the reason you are enemy of Chechens, and all other Muslims.

But being a jewish, you display your animosity in a crafty, manipulative way.

Kissie and you are two most disgusting characters on this board. Actually calling you
character is wrong, since you have no clear character.

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:34 pm:

Jisbond..you do DISPLAY ...SOME ....INTELLIGENCE, Concerning History.., but you forget
few things!!!

1>)Peace-Loving People of Chechnya, DIDNT WANT THIS!!Only, from the Mouth, of
Terrorists, did their Voices come!!!


2.)Laura Schlesinger???Please....she is a KNOWN Follower of Judaism.., and not..a
COMMENDABLE SOURCE, when Speaking of Human-Values!!HeR own country Sponsors
Genocide!!!

3.)THE RUSSIAN CHRISTIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH..IS 1 OF THE OLDEST CHRISTIAN
CHURCHES, IN THE WORLD..EVER!!!Because the practice of Christianity, IS NOT,
IMPOSED..UPON THE RUSSIAN PEOPLES', AS IN USA, AND BRITAIN...Doesnt mean, it is a
Means, to Crucify a Nation!!!!


4.)IT HAS LONG BEEN BEHELD,BY WESTERN COUNTRIES', THAT RUSSIA...CRUCIFIES
CHRISTIANITY..THIS IS NOT TRUE.., EVEN THE POPE..., AND THE PAPACY, HAS LONG
REVERED THE WORK OF THE RUSSIAN CHRISTIAN-ORTHODOXY!!!
"I AM RUSSIAN.., AND A CHRISTIAN.., AND I SEE MANY THINGS, CONCERNING MUSLIM
FAITH.., AND THEY "ARE" THE ENEMY OF THE WORLD..., A PEACE-LOVING WORLD, THAT
WE SHOULD ALL ENJOY AND LOVE!!!

AND, FURTHERMORE,WHY ARE ALL THEIR SPONSORS..DRUG-RUNNERS', AND
THUGS??ANSWER ME THIS.., for example..Mr. Thaci'...Basayev..are these men, of GREAT
CHARACTER???WOULD YOU HAVE THEM..IN YOUR HOME??I THINK NOT!!!
thanks for your Input, Comrade Jisbond...

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:39 pm:

OH..Jisbond..so all Christian Faiths'..are EVIL.., AND THE USA..IS THE GREAT
SATN...hmmm.., well--why does usa come to the aid of these
MUSLIMS???Contradictory????


Texas is a state, by the way.., and the so-called USA..IS PRESUMED TO BE THE
GREATEST CIVILISATION IN THE WORLD.....

..I PROVE MY POINT TO YOU

THANKS FOR SHARING...AND STOP THE HATE.., AND LIES..THEY CAN ONLY BRING MORE
SUFFERING, UPON THE HEADS ' OF YOUR PEOPLE

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:40 pm:

To True Russian:
Bombings in Russia have been reported as unsubstantiated accusations. reports have come
out that another bombing plot was foiled by Russian citizens who saw a Russian
Government car at the scene and suspected that the Russian secret service was behind
this one when the bomb was defused by local police.

Also Chechens have been denying from the beginning
which means that some one set it up to look like Chechen work against Russia.

Look at operation Horse shoe in Dagestan when Russian military were given authority not
to destroy Shamil Basiev by the name of the operation itself they were forced westward
back to Chechnya.

Jisbond

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:41 pm:

Turkish minister: Militants used human shields 02/15/2000

Associated Press Newswires
02/15/2000

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) - Turkey's interior minister claimed Tuesday that Islamic militants
used women and children as human shields in gunbattles against police which left 10 dead.


//AND THESE ARE PEOPLE YOU SUPPORT, Jisbond??I see the Muslim Faith..UTTERLY
DESTROYED..AT THIS RATE

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112

CONTINUATION:
TRUE RUSSIAN WRITES BACK:
"//AND THESE ARE PEOPLE YOU SUPPORT, Jisbond??I see the Muslim Faith..UTTERLY
DESTROYED..AT THIS RATE"

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:46 pm:

Jisbond..NOW YOU HUMOR ME???

..WHY WOULD RUSSIA FAKE BOMBINGS..TO KILL 3,000, OF ITS OWN TROOPS...SPEND 3
BILLION $$$ ON THE EFFORT???

... THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE....

Muslim Faith, it would seem.., are KILLING POEPLE, ALL OVER THE WORLD..ARE THEY
Justified, in doing this???I say NO!!!!FAITH OF ISLAM..SAYS PEACE IS GOOD.., AND TO
AVOID BLOODSHED..AT ALL COSTS...IT IS ONLY 'NEW' Orders, that SEEK VIOLENCE.., AND
THEY ARE BEING FOUND-OUT.., AND SHOWN TO BE OF GREAT COWARDICE, AND
DESPICABLE NATURE...

THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT, COMRADE Jisbond...

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:50 pm:

I SAY..WE SHOULD ALL JOIN HANDS', AND IN GREAT UNITY.., SEEK OUT, TO MAKE WORLD
A BETTER PLACE.., AND TO BEAT THESE TOOLS' OF WARFARE, INTO OLIVE-BRANCHES OF
PEACE!!!!

ONLY AN IDIOT, LOVES TO SEE SUFFERING, AND TO JUSTIFY, ONLY 1 TIME.., THE KILLING
OF ANYONE..IS WRONG, AND THE GREAT GOD OF ALL OF US.., WE WILL ANSWER TO HIM,
IN TIME (-:

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:51 pm:

True Russian Wrote:
THANKS FOR SHARING...AND STOP THE HATE.., AND LIES..THEY CAN ONLY BRING MORE
SUFFERING, UPON THE HEADS ' OF YOUR PEOPLE

To True Russian:
No one said Of supporting Violence of any Kind.
Just stating findings and forwarding my analysis.
_____________________________________________
To: Tru Russian:
It looks like you are offended by free speech which brings me to my point about Russian
mis-education and its threats of elimination against those who dare to even speak.

Real truth always hurts those who do not wish to hear it ~ where as lies are usually
dismissed by the innocent.
Jisbond

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:54 pm:

I like your peace so far statement best True Russian.
Jisbond

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:55 pm:

UNITED , WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.., BUT, FROM WORDS, OF GREAT COM-PATRIOT OF
OLD..


"THIS DIVIDED HOUSE, CANNOT STAND!!!UPON THE FIRMAMENTS OF HEAVEN, SHALL
BECOME A PLACE, MADE, BY ALL PEACE-LOVERS OF THE WORLD, AND THOSE WHO
SOUGHT KINDNESS, AND COMPASSION."

"THOSE WHOM SEEK IDEALOGICAL-HERESIES, AND JUSTIFICATIONS FOR BLOOD, ARE
CONDEMNED TO A LIFE OF GREAT ILL-CONTENT, AND SUFFERING..."


...SOMEONE TELL ME ..WHO SAID THIS???YOU'D BE SUPRISED...

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:56 pm:

revised:
I like your peace statement best so far: True Russian.
Jisbond

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:01 am:

PEACE IS ONLY ROAD, THAT IS FILLED WITH HAPPINESS, AND THOSE PLOWSHARES, IF
EMPLOYED IN RIGHT MANNER, CAN DEFEAT ANY KINGDOMS' OF THE WORLD...

AS A GREAT RUSSIAN HISTORIAN ONCE OBSERVED...

"THE FRUITS OF DEMOCRACY ARE , INDEED..BITTER ONES, BUT VIGILANCE TO PEACE...,
CAN ENSURE PROSPERITY, TO THOSE , WHO DILIGENTLY SEEK TO MAKE OF THIS WORLD,
THEIR OWN PLACE OF SANCTITY..., AND TO CREATE A BETTER WORLD, IS TO GIVE TO
THE CREATOR A REWARD, THAT HE DOES GIVE, TO US..EVERYDAY....

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:04 am:

To: True Russian,
Here is one thing I found Muslims see in Russian Bible when they read it.
Just information for you to look at before you judge why Muslims cannot accept the bible
as the current Bible Russian or otherwise as the true word of God.
__________________________________________________
Dear Sir:
I am a Muslim and I listen to your broadcasts. I agree with all of what you preach except
for one
thing which is taught in my religion:

I hope you will not be offended. Please explain to me the item which I find hard to agree
on. How
can you read the Bible and not see what we Muslims see. We are told to believe in the
same bible
as yours too in addition to the Quran. We muslims are Logical so we see many things with
Logic
too.

Emotions are good and necessary to all people but to us Muslims it has its place when it
comes to
analyzing truths or written doctrines.

God Bless you in your work
__________________________________________________

Here is what we Muslims see when we read the Bible with respect to the authoroty of his
majesty
"Jesus" (may peace be upon him) We see in him a man (AND ONE OF GOD'S CHOSEN
PROPHETS): (NOT GOD OR SON OF GOD)

THE GOD THAT NEVER WAS:

Islam is the only Religion which teaches the existence of a PERFECT GOD. A perfect god
means

that there is no Sharer in His Nature and his Attributes: " Say: He is God, the ONE and
Only; God
the Eternal, Absolute; He begeteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto
Him."
Quran, 112:1-4

There has appeared am man in Benoni. He is not qualified in theology, but is fondly
cherishing the
self-delusion that he is an apostle of Christ, appointed by God to convert Muslims to
Christianity.
Because he is a Lawyer by profession, he is adept at judging with words and quoting the
Holy
Quran totally out of context without knowing a word of Arabic. He wants Muslims to
believe that
Jesus was also a God, a belief that is abhorrent to us, because it is an antithesis of the
Absolute
perfection of Allah Subhaanahoo Wa Ta 'Aala!

Thus intent upon reversing the process of truth, which is: "And say: The Truth has come
and
falsehood vanished. Surly falsehood is ever bound to vanish." (Quran, 17:81). In this he
will never
succeed because the process of truth is irreversible.

He has given two reasons to prove that Jesus is God, VIZ: (I) "when we say Jesus is a
deity (or
even god for that matter), we do not make him the Father! He is one with the Father and
therefor
HE SHARES HIS NATURE", and (ii) "HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is
not the Father".

In short, according to him, Jesus is God because HE SHARES THE NATURTE OF GOD, and
HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. These two reasons given by him to prove the divinity of
Jesus are so puerile that they speak volumes of his legal training.

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:05 am:

I AM SADDEND BY TALK OF JIHAD'..., THEY ARE ONLY WAR-MONGERERS'!!!!!!


A HOLY WAR???WHO GIVES MUSLIM RIGHT, TO KILL, IN NAME OF DIFFERING FAITHS'???


..PLEASE TELL ME ..WHO IS RESPONSIBLE, FOR SO MUCH SADDNESS???I MUST MEET
THEM.., AND SHOW THEM THE LIGHT OF THIS WORLD....

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:10 am:

I SEE NO 'ALLAH'..IN BIBLICAL TEACHINGS'???SHOW ME, WHAT BIBLE THIS IS????


GOD SAYS..SEEK ME FIRST, AND I SHALL REWARD YOU..., BUT MANKIND MESSED THIS UP,
WITH PAGAN-IDOLATRIES'...., AND A SAVIOUR WAS SENT, TO THIS WORLD..Jesus..., and
he is,A SAVIOUR TO ALL..THIS IS WHAT I LEARN..AND I AM RUSSIAN

THE KORAN..IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE!!SO , TELL ME..PLEASE...WAS THIS
KORAN..MAN-MADE???ABSOLUTELY..., AND I CONSIDER IT.., TO NOT BE..WORD OF TRUE
GOD..., WE MAY DIFFER, BUT , HOPEFULLY..WE CAN DIFFER, PEACEFULLY, AND WITH
LOVE, AND RESPECT TO EACH OTHERS' HERITAGE....

(-:

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:13 am:

True Russian: The rest of story was cut off.
so here it is in continuation. balance of story in full:

THE GOD THAT NEVER WAS:

Islam is the only Religion which teaches the existence of a PERFECT GOD. A perfect god
means

that there is no Sharer in His Nature and his Attributes: " Say: He is God, the ONE and
Only; God
the Eternal, Absolute; He begeteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none like unto
Him."
Quran, 112:1-4

There has appeared am man in Benoni. He is not qualified in theology, but is fondly
cherishing the
self-delusion that he is an apostle of Christ, appointed by God to convert Muslims to
Christianity.
Because he is a Lawyer by profession, he is adept at judging with words and quoting the
Holy
Quran totally out of context without knowing a word of Arabic. He wants Muslims to
believe that
Jesus was also a God, a belief that is abhorrent to us, because it is an antithesis of the
Absolute
perfection of Allah Subhaanahoo Wa Ta 'Aala!

Thus intent upon reversing the process of truth, which is: "And say: The Truth has come
and
falsehood vanished. Surly falsehood is ever bound to vanish." (Quran, 17:81). In this he
will never
succeed because the process of truth is irreversible.

He has given two reasons to prove that Jesus is God, VIZ: (I) "when we say Jesus is a
deity (or
even god for that matter), we do not make him the Father! He is one with the Father and
therefor
HE SHARES HIS NATURE", and (ii) "HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is
not the Father".

In short, according to him, Jesus is God because HE SHARES THE NATURTE OF GOD, and
HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. These two reasons given by him to prove the divinity of
Jesus are so puerile that they speak volumes of his legal training.

Numerous quotations from the Bible are given below to prove that Jesus neither SHARED
THE
NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He can, therefor, NEVER be God.

We have given the quotations from the Bible without comment, because the Bible speaks
for
itself!
TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD IS NOT ONLY A MOCKERY OF GODHOOD, BUT
BLASPHEMY OF THE LOWEST ORDER AND AN INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE OF

MEN! (Note: Unless otherwise stated, all quotations from the Bible are given from the
Authorized
Version. In our headings and subheadings we have referred to Jesus as "God" in inverted
commas
in order to show the ABSURDITY of the claim of this man.... that Jesus is God!)

THE BIRTH OF "GOD":

"God" Was Created From The Seed Of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
which
was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans,1 :3)

"God" Was The Fruit Of The Loins Of David: "Therefor being a prophet, and knowing that
God
had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he
would raise
up
Christ to sit on his throne." (acts, 2:30)

THE ANSESTERS OF "GOD": " The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of
Abraham." (Mathew, 1:1)

THE SEX OF "GOD": And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcision of the
child,
his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

HOW MARY CONCEIVED AND DELIVERED "GOD": Mary conceived Jesus like any other
woman: " The days were accomplished that she should be delivered,: (Luke, 2:6) - which
means
that she went through all the normal stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any
different from

other expectant mothers: " And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to
be
delivered." (Revelation, 12:2)

"GOD" SUCKED THE PAPS OF A WOMAN: And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a
certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb
that
bare thee, and the Paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke,11:27)

THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN OF "GOD": Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of

Herod the King." (Matthew,2:1)

THE OCCUPATION OF "GOD": Jesus was a carpenter by trade(Mark, 6:3) and the son of a
carpenter. (Mathew, 13:55)

THE TRANSPORT OF “GOD”: Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an
ass.” (Mathew, 12:5) And Jesus, when had found a young ass, sat thereon. (John, 12:14

There is much more to follow. (I will post later)

According to this self –appointed apostle of Christ, Jesus is God because: (1) “HE SHARED
THE
NATURE OF GOD”, and (2) because “IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD”. But according
to the quotations of the Bible given above, We find that Jesus did not SHARE THE NATURE
OF
GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests
with this Christian. Either he must Prove that Jesus is God, or he must admit that he is a
polytheist,
i.e., a believer in more than one God.
WITH ALL THE TRICKS AND VERBLE LEGERDEMAIN OF HIS PROFFESSION, HE
WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JUSUS IS GOD!!

He and his fellow-preachers in Christ, will never succeed in converting the Muslims that
Jesus
was anything other than a natural man and a prophet of God, sent unto the house of
Israel to bear
the good news of the coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which prophesy was fulfilled with
the
advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wa Sallam)!

By Turk ( - 203.28.207.171) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:13 am:

>>>By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:13 pm:

BIG DOG...ALWAYS EATS LITTLE DOG..THIS IS UN-DENIABLE.... >>>

This is your problem. You don't think yourselves different, or better than dogs. So just like
big dog eats little dog, big Russia eats little Chechnya. And you don't question all the crime
being committed, since what is happening is the operation of natural law.

That is making, Russia and Russians such a danger to the world today. So today is
Chechnya, what is for tomorrow?

By Turk ( - 203.28.207.171) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:13 am:

>>>By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Friday, February 18, 2000 - 11:13 pm:

BIG DOG...ALWAYS EATS LITTLE DOG..THIS IS UN-DENIABLE.... >>>

This is your problem. You don't think yourselves different, or better than dogs. So just like
big dog eats little dog, big Russia eats little Chechnya. And you don't question all the crime
being committed, since what is happening is the operation of natural law.

That is making, Russia and Russians such a danger to the world today. So today is
Chechnya, what is for tomorrow?

By TRUE RUSSIAN ( - 216.225.173.112) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:16 am:

I SE ENO PROPHET MOHAMMED....IN MY VERSION OF THE BIBLE.., NOR HAVE I FOUND
IT..IN 'ANY' CHRISTIAN BIBLE TEACHINGS'???

SO TELL ME..WHAT INVOKES SUCH NON-SENSICAL HATRED, IN,
MUSLIM-WORLD...REGARDING, THE FOLLOWING OF CHISTIAN FAITH,AS 90 % OF THE
WORLD PRACTICES???

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:19 am:

To Turk:
Bad mouthing will not get us any place soon.
Also every one has right to an opinion as long as he dose have supporting evidence ~
otherwise it is
just utterances of those who know nothing better to say on account of having been
mis-educated or having little knowledge.

Most of the time Respect brings Respect. (Most of the time but not all the time!)
Regards
Jisbond

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:45 am:

True Russian wrote:
I SEE NO PROPHET MOHAMMED....IN MY VERSION OF THE BIBLE.., NOR HAVE I FOUND
IT..IN 'ANY' CHRISTIAN BIBLE TEACHINGS'???

SO TELL ME..WHAT INVOKES SUCH NON-SENSUAL HATRED,
IN,MUSLIM-WORLD...REGARDING, THE FOLLOWING OF CHRISTIAN FAITH,AS 90 % OF THE
WORLD PRACTICES???

---

To: True Russian:
You have not read the real Bible. Which is posted at: http://barnabas.net/

---

TRUE MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY HATE IN THEM. I DOUBT THAT
JESUS WOULD HAVE BOMBED CHECHENS IF HE WAS WITH US TODAY.

---

HATRED COMES FROM LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ONE ANOTHER AND INTOLERANCE FOR
YOUR NEIGHBORS WHICH COMES FROM HAVING TOO MUCH AMBITION AND A WISH FOR
POWER OVER THINGS AND PEOPLE BY A FEW. IT IS THE TEACHINGS OF THE DEVIL PLACED
IN THE HEART OF THOSE WHO DO NOT PRACTICE THEIR FAITH TO THE WORD.

---

HERE IS WHAT REAL MUSLIMS BELIEVE:
PLEASE TAKE TIME TO READ THIS WHEN YOU GET THE CHACE. YOU MAY WISH TO BOOK
MARK THE THREE SIGHTS
FOOR LATER USE.
http://www.mosque.com/faith.html

http://www.nbic.org/isru/Resources/ghazali1.html

http://barnabas.net/

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:57 am:

By jisbond ( - 209.86.60.222) on Saturday, February 19, 2000 - 12:13 am:

True Russian: The rest of story was cut off.
so here it is in continuation. balance of story in full:

THE GOD THAT NEVER WAS:

Islam is the only Religion which teaches the existence of a PERFECT GOD. A perfect God
means that there is no Sharer in His Nature and his Attributes: " Say: He is God, the ONE
and Only; God the Eternal, Absolute; He begeteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is
none like unto Him." Quran, 112:1-4

There has appeared am man in Benoni. He is not qualified in theology, but is fondly
cherishing the self-delusion that he is an apostle of Christ, appointed by God to convert
Muslims to Christianity.

Because he is a Lawyer by profession, he is adept at judging with words and quoting the
Holy Quran totally out of context without knowing a word of Arabic. He wants Muslims to
believe that Jesus was also a God, a belief that is abhorrent to us, because it is an
antithesis of the Absolute
perfection of Allah Subhaanahoo Wa Ta 'Aala!

Thus intent upon reversing the process of truth, which is: "And say: The Truth has come
and
falsehood vanished. Surly falsehood is ever bound to vanish." (Quran, 17:81). In this he
will never
succeed because the process of truth is irreversible.

He has given two reasons to prove that Jesus is God, VIZ:

(I) "when we say Jesus is a deity or even god for that matter), we do not make him the
Father! He is one with the Father and therefor HE SHARES HIS NATURE".

ii) "HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE THE FATHER but he is not the Father".

In short, according to him, Jesus is God because HE SHARES THE NATURTE OF GOD, and
HE IS IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. These two reasons given by him to prove the divinity of
Jesus are so puerile that they speak volumes of his legal training.

Numerous quotations from the Bible are given below to prove that Jesus neither SHARED
THE NATURE OF GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He can, therefor, NEVER be God.

We have given the quotations from the Bible without comment, because the Bible speaks
for itself!

TO SAY THAT JESUS IS GOD IS NOT ONLY A MOCKERY OF GODHOOD, BUT BLASPHEMY OF
THE LOWEST ORDER AND AN INSULT TO THE INTELLIGENCE OF MEN! (Note: Unless
otherwise stated, all quotations from the Bible are given from the Authorized Version. In
our headings and subheadings we have referred to Jesus as "God" in inverted commas in
order to show the ABSURDITY of the claim of this man.... that Jesus is God!)

THE BIRTH OF "GOD":"God" Was Created From The Seed Of David: "Concerning his Son
Jesus Christ our Lord,which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh."
(Romans,1 :3)

"God" Was The Fruit Of The Loins Of David:Therefor being a prophet, and knowing that God
had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he
would raise
up Christ to sit on his throne." (acts, 2:30)

THE ANSESTERS OF "GOD": " The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of
Abraham." (Mathew, 1:1)

THE SEX OF "GOD": And when eight days were complished for the circumcision of the
child,his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

HOW MARY CONCEIVED AND DELIVERED "GOD": Mary conceived Jesus like any other
woman: " The days were accomplished that she should be delivered,: (Luke, 2:6) - which
means that she went through all the normal stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any
different from other expectant mothers: " And she being with child cried, travailing in birth,
and pained to be delivered." (Revelation, 12:2)

"GOD" SUCKED THE PAPS OF A WOMAN: And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a
certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb
that bare thee, and the Paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke,11:27)

THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN OF "GOD": Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of
Herod the King." (Matthew,2:1)

THE OCCUPATION OF "GOD": Jesus was a carpenter by trade(Mark, 6:3) and the son of a
carpenter. (Mathew, 13:55)

THE TRANSPORT OF “GOD”: Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an
ass.” (Mathew, 12:5) And Jesus, when had found a young ass, sat thereon. (John, 12:14)

There is much more to follow. (I will post later)

According to this self –appointed apostle of Christ, Jesus is God because: (1) “HE SHARED
THE NATURE OF GOD”, and (2) because “IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD”. But according to
the quotations of the Bible given above, We find that Jesus did not SHARE THE NATURE OF
GOD, nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests
with this Christian. Either he must Prove that Jesus is God, or he must admit that he is a
polytheist, i.e., a believer in more than one God. WITH ALL THE TRICKS AND VERBLE
LEGERDEMAIN OF HIS PROFFESSION, HE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JUSUS IS
GOD!!

He and his fellow-preachers in Christ, will never succeed in converting the Muslims that
Jesus was anything other than a natural man and a prophet of God, sent unto the house
of Israel to bear the good news of the coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which prophesy
was fulfilled with the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wa
Sallam)!