AD HOMINEM ATTACKS!! AD HOMINEM ATTACKS!!

"self-authenticating", indeed!

Really, Phil, is that the best you can come up with. I'd really prefer you got on with the "rest of the drivel", as you so ineloquently put it.

In the meantime, check this out - that is, if Investor's Business Daily isn't also on your no-no list.

tommygunns

=================================================

(C) Copyright 1999 Investors Business Daily, Inc.

ANOTHER BALKAN WAR?

LLOYD ARDEN

Lloyd Darden spent a career as a global consultant in business and intelligence activities.

Date: 9/29/99

There's a growing expectation in Yugoslavia that the country's two remaining republics - Serbia and Montenegro - will soon be at war. Deja vu? Are we entering yet another phase in the saga where Yugoslavs of varying cultures annihilate one other?

Actually, no. The country has run out of disparate factions. Serbia and the hard core of Montenegro share a slavic heritage and language, and the Eastern Orthodox faith. No ethnicity to cleanse. So why fight?

Montenegro has a population of only 620,000, of which a probable majority wants greater autonomy. The independence movement was aggravated during the Kosovo war by Serbia's heavy-handed controlling of Montenegro's borders and Adriatic ports. A significant block of the population is seeking a plebiscite.

And the Serbs? If they lost Montenegro and its ports, they would wind up landlocked. They'll fight any secession like a mother holding onto her last child.

Brig. Gen. Bobo Bogdanovic, commander in chief of the unofficial Montenegrin Liberation Army, says his well- trained guerillas number 25,000 and are ready for action. They're well- equipped with arms the Serbs gave them to use against the Kosovars (unused, to the great annoyance of Serbia).

Overwhelmingly outmanned by the Serbs, Montenegrins would have the advantage of snipers fighting in their own terrain. They could conduct a long, ugly guerilla war from the hills. That's a heavy price to pay for disagreements that seem negotiable. And since Montenegrins are enduring no great human suffering, what is triggering their acute war fever?

If you'd ask that question of Serbs or former Yugoslavs in surrounding provinces, you'd be startled by their answer: ''NATO'' or ''Washington.'' (Synonyms in slavic eyes.)

They say the U.S. creates problems in a region, stirs up factional fighting, then arrives on the scene to resolve things in America's interest. They need only look to Bosnia and Kosovo for evidence.

This is the kind of reputation a major power gets when it meddles a lot, and the Balkan coffee houses abound with stories of U.S. intentions.

It's possible that the brooding coffee sippers understand Clinton's Machiavellian nature better than we do. For us, it's hard to imagine the president wanting another war in the Balkans. Slavs see it differently.

Most Americans would view another Yugoslavian war as personally risky for the president, endangering the positive spin he managed in Kosovo. And risky for civilization, a lesser number of us espouse, because Clinton's record in Yugoslavia has met virtually none of his goals. Quite the opposite:

He bombed Bosnia with a goal of national unity, then cut up real estate like icebergs from a glacier.

He promised the Kosovars a plebiscite in three years, and omitted it entirely from their treaty. He seemed intent on improving our relations with the world's two other intercontinental nuclear powers, China and Russia, but unified them against us for the first time in four decades.

Americans, whether they recognize these mistakes or not, assume Clinton is as weary of Yugoslavia as they are.

Slavs, on the other hand, see tiny Montenegro's bravado for battle as an expectation of financial and military support from Washington. If that's truly the case, timing of any such war becomes the prerogative of the White House. Clinton's personal priorities would again control the fate of another nation.

Nothing could better serve his legacy, Clinton doubtless believes, than direct American involvement in toppling Slobodan Milosevic - whom the president likes to compare to the mightiest tyrants of history.

Will Montenegro and Serbia go to war? Most on the scene say yes. Montenegro is alive with the movement of troops from both sides. Bogdanovic is a lightning rod ready to flash.

For several reasons, Serbia might prefer a slower timetable, but in the meantime Serb soldiers are watching the Montenegrin troops like hawks.

Don't support such a war, Mr. President. Besides being a needless killing spree, it would further deplete the American arsenal needed globally by U.S. troops - troops too often stationed in areas where we've meddled mindlessly.

TG:
actually the first person to release "me and bobby
mcgee" as a single was roger "king of the road"
miller; used to hear it on the country station my
old man played in the car, 69/70.
joplin would have done further vocal takes had she
not died, as the volcalizing at the end borders on
pathetic.

(insert haughty/nasty remarks about non-topic
postings from teenybopper danielle [smirk]

gonna have to find out one of these days what "ad
hominem" means...lol..

TOMMY G

short message ; Zoja is my twinsister so you chose for yourself if yoou want to talk to 2 halves or 2 persons knowing eachother like there back pockets.........????????

to be honest im glad with a sister who takes it up on her schoulders to help me out. i'd do the same for her. its called unconditional trust love if you wish.

maybe its you wishing there would be someone there for you who'd stick his/her neck out...????
🙂

Emina

another bag of cr..

daniela
you may have m'sieu gunns on your allegedly teenaged teat but not me.
so what exactly do you contribute here, other than word-for-word retyping of other people's articles and nasty remarks for fellow posters?
i can find anti-american shwa all over the place, nothin' new about that. and if you're just a kid then i'm wasting time to let you annoy me in any case.
kissie, you are so much cooler than this little hag.

ps> chill, TG. the expression fit the moment.

l'em

Not to worry. theres a saying what comes around goes around.
Daniela would fit the shoe perfectly, but she will realize that only when she's willing enough to grow up:-)

Anyhow she can try to push me down all she wants, but she'll never be able to take my dignaty

Emina

Emina,

You're beginning to sound like Phil, shifting the subject to avoid the question.

Are we now changing "your" rules? We are now suppose to deal with the two of you as mirror images, or what?

You're the one that has bitched on more than one occasion about each of you speaking for yourselves, now you're telling us you'll be speaking for each other and/or switching back and forth.

>> maybe its you wishing there would be someone there for you who'd stick his/her neck out...????
🙂 <<

Please, dear, save the amateur psych. I don't buy it. There's a reason why you'll never find the Depts. of Psychology or Economonics within the Schools of Science at any University - it's because neither is a science. George Bush's comment about "all economics being voodoo" applies equally to psychology. Like political correctness, we now get bombarded with the voodoo psychology and voodoo sociology of the moment and have to endure endlessly boring TV talking heads who actually believe they know what they're talking about!!

Worst, yet, these people influence public and foreign policy. Witness the proliferation of NGOs operating all over the planet and their elevation to quasi-government status. In fact, if you want to know who's going to rule you in your brave NWO take a good look at today's NGOs. Whole nations will be prescribed "therapy" to cure it's people of any old notions of nationalism - well, hell isn't that what the Balkan Wars are all about?

tommygunns

Daniela,

Even though I went into my "voodoo" spin, your comment "Another bag of cr.." was on target and to the point.

Stay tough, friend. Onward and Upward!!

The rest of you - chill, too!

tommygunns

PS - Have been unavailable for a few days - down with the flu. Just now beginning to feel like me old self almost.

TOMMY

I guess reading isn't your strongest point either.
I said in the past that i am fat up with people like your child friend that Zoja and me are one person. NOT that i wouldn't allow her or anybody else to stick up for me.
That makes the story different.
Anyways speaking of nationalism You really think Your friend Daniela's reaction aren't coming from nationalism????????

If not better read carefully all what she writes and wrote.
And about the psycholegy part you better stay out of that one. I was the one who studied psychiatry and to be honest to hell with your presedents.
There all the same and like every present don't give a damn about the country there supposed to rule and the people there supposed to guide.

The only thing they think off is how do i get rich fast over someoneelses back and how do i stay in my seat.That counts everywhere. And sounding like phil well atleast he's got decesency in his brains

Emina

"stay tough, my friend"
in other words, continue your parroting of other
peoples' articles, and your posturing, and your
insults, to the exclusion of anything tangible
actually emitting from ==>> you. <<==
TG, if you stand w/her while she disses emina and
zoya then by all means...
you want 'chill'? have a slurpee

Speaking of other peoples articles, here is a rather good one showing the efforts being made by the Serbian news media to come to terms with their role during the bombing. phil

---

THE NEW YORK TIMES
October 6, 1999

Independent Serb Journalists Defend Their Work

By STEVEN ERLANGER

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia -- When a Montenegrin journalist suggested that the independent Serbian news media needed "de-Nazification" as much as the Serbian people, two respected Serbian editors had heard enough and stalked out of a Western-sponsored conference in disgust.

Three weeks later, Dragoljub Zarkovic, editor of the independent weekly Vreme, is still disgusted.

"To accuse the Serb people and the independent media of the worst crime in history, and to draw an outrageous and defamatory line of equality between a regime, a nation and a media that has been waging a bloody battle against the authorities for 10 years," Zarkovic said, "then I felt I had no option but to walk out."

The conference, sponsored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, was intended to allow Serbian, Montenegrin and a few Albanian journalists to discuss their coverage of NATO's bombing war over Kosovo, its causes and its
aftermath.

Did the independent media fail to challenge war censorship sufficiently? Should they have suspended publication instead? Did they support the government of President Slobodan Milosevic of
Yugoslavia or somehow collaborate with it? Did they print enough about Kosovo and the atrocities committed by Serbian forces there, and are they printing enough now?

During the war the Serbian news media operated under strict censorship, and access to Kosovo was very restricted. In the patriotic atmosphere, fueled by the media, Serbs nearly universally
opposed the bombing, even if they also opposed Milosevic or denounced the expulsion of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo.

The meeting, at a resort in Montenegro -- the only remaining Yugoslav republic beside Serbia -- created enormous acrimony, with Serbian journalists complaining of moral arrogance, sloppiness and hypocrisy.

"The organizers wanted to waken our consciences and force us to question ourselves about our conduct and morality," said Veselin Simonovic, the editor of Blic, an independent tabloid, who returned to the discussion after his walkout.

At the same time, he said, "and this was put to us pretty directly, they made it clear we should be proclaimed as accomplices in crime, with ready-made slogans and cliches, and they tried to
force us to justify ourselves and say that we weren't quite as criminal as they said."

"Well," he said, "I wouldn't play along, and I felt sorry for my colleagues who did." The organizers had made a completely inadequate study of the coverage, he said, making few distinctions
between state and independent news media or among them.

Gerard Stoudmann, chief organizer of the onference, said the "aim was to raise concerns about their role and responsibility in
civic society."

"There was enormous defensiveness, which shows to what extent Serbian society has become autistic and paranoid," he said. "But the main goal was achieved, because real issues were addressed,
and it initiated a thinking process."

But Simonovic, whose paper takes no money from international donors or governments, said the discussion had the character of a "trial" by Western sponsors. One of the organizers, Natasa
Kandic, was explicit. At one point she said, "They pay you and have the right to question your conduct during the war."

Ms. Kandic, the director of Belgrade's Humanitarian Law Center, which gets Western aid, traveled to Kosovo on her own during the war to investigate Serbian abuses.

In an interview, she said the Serbian news media had failed in their professional responsibilities during the war and were failing now to open the question of collective Serbian responsibility for
crimes in Kosovo.

"I said we have an obligation to donors to do our jobs, and to fight for democracy in Serbia and not have that be empty words," she said.

Simonovic, acknowledging that some of the criticism was valid, countered that Kosovo remained "a taboo subject" in Serbia.

"This is an issue that must be opened for our own sake," he said, "not for international do-gooders, and the media will open it. But now would really bring the regime's wrath down on us, and I
believe the regime would stop us from publishing it."

That is one reason, he said when pressed, that his reporters have not dug very hard yet into the causes and tactics of the Serbian war in Kosovo -- answers that are to be had in Belgrade, not in
Kosovo, where it is no longer safe for Serbian journalists to work.

"Our priority now is to cover the regime and the opposition effort to bring it down or change it," he said.

But he and Zarkovic noted that under censorship the independent media did not indulge in the hysterical, jingoistic and aggressive language of the state media. Independent journalists drew a
distinction between popular, patriotic anger about NATO's bombing campaign and support for Milosevic, he said, and printed NATO statements and Western reports about events in Kosovo, including stories about mass graves and Western estimates of the
number of dead.

Both editors argued that given wide access to foreign radio and television stations and the Internet, few Serbs lacked basic information about what had happened in Kosovo, and they said it
was ridiculous to expect the independent media to support the bombing of their own country in wartime.

Instead, they and other Serbian journalists suggested that the West was less interested in their professional conduct than in finding scapegoats for NATO's failure to oust Milosevic or to protect Albanians in Kosovo, and its failure since then to control Albanian rage against Kosovo's Serbs.

"People who were on the receiving end of Western democracy grants are now to feel Western wrath," Simonovic said. "The West failed to create a multiethnic Kosovo, creating anti-American
feeling in Serbia instead. Westerners now need someone to blame: the civic sector, the Serbs, the press -- everyone, to them, is a collaborator. In this rosy picture, they're the only blameless
ones, their policies perfect."

American officials are scathing about how the Serbian news media allowed themselves to be censored during the war, said Zarkovicof the weekly Vreme, founded in 1990.

Ms. Kandic said refusing to publish was the proper position to take. That would be an abdication of responsibility, Zarkovic said, and the government threatened to close any paper that did not appear. "It would have been a terrible mistake to kill Vreme," he said.

For the Americans, the war against Milosevic continues. The Clinton administration has said it is creating a "ring around Serbia" of sponsored media, much of it radio or television, from
Bosnia and Montenegro, with more Serbian-language programs from Radio Free Europe and Voice of America.

It is helping the Vreme-like weekly magazine Reporter, published in Bosnia, to enter the Serbian market at a discount price, and just last week paid for two Serbian and four Montenegrin
journalists to travel to the United Nations to counter state media assertions that the foreign minister was making an impact there among nations unhappy with American hegemony. But they arrived the day he left.

"The only result that interests Americans is the fall of Milosevic," Zarkovic said. "The Americans see the media as a political weapon to bring Milosevic down. They don't seem to care very much
what will happen the day after Milosevic. I can understand: the Americans won't live here. But I will, and I'll be putting out a paper then."

---

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l'em
Just stop reacting there both bags of.....Same old story same old song
Done it all seen it all and chocked on it 🙂

Emina
Ps Don't get yourself worked up my friend

TG & DANIELA YOU REALLY WAMNT TO KNOW WHAT GOING ON IN BEOGRAD BETTER READ THIS!!!!!
NO NO NO NO NEWSPAPERARTICLES I DON'T NEED TO RETYPE THEM OR GO TO WEBSITES I GET THEM DELIVERED TO ME IN MY MAILBOX.
AGAIN NOT SOME 'SO CALLED' ALBANIAN STYLE LIE NO A SERBIAN FRIEND AGAINST SLOB 29.9.99 correct date!!!!!!OH AND ANOTHER THING IF YOU READ THIS PERSON WAS WITNESSING ALL OF IT. SO NO DOUBTS THERE

---

22:55 CET (GMT+2) - People in Balkanska and Narodnog fronta heavily beaten
-- People who were in Balkanska and Narodnog fronta street (downhill from
Srpskih vladara and Terazije street, uphill from railway station) were
beaten the most. One of the demonstrants told us that police was most
brutal there and chased the people to beat them. This is so alike 1996 and
1997 when the police used to ambush people when they were returning from
the rallies.
22:51 CET (GMT+2) - Democratic Party claims 60 injured -- Democratic Party
(DS) claims that sixty people have been beaten tonight in a brutal police
intervention. The real number will never be known because most (and I mean
most) of the injured refuse help of doctors because they are afriad of
being reported to the police and persecuted. This method was used before to
scare the people, but didn't work.
22:46 CET (GMT+2) - Professor Peric beaten -- This is an unfortunate
incident because I know professor Peric personally and he is a quiet man,
not the least violent. Obviously the police didn't care who they beat.
22:44 CET (GMT+2) - Another professor beaten -- Radio Index just
interviewed professor Milicevic who was beaten in the streets and he said
that another professor, Miljenko Peric, professor of Quantum chmistry on
Faculty of Physical chemistry of Belgrade University, was also beaten.
22:38 CET (GMT+2) - Our special report -- Our special report will be posted
very soon on our protest page!
22:37 CET (GMT+2) - Rally is over -- The rally is over, the next one will
be at 20:00 CET tomorrow.
22:36 CET (GMT+2) - Leaders lead the crowd -- Due to the specific route of
tonights walk the leaders of Alliance for Change were in the front, behind
the flags. They proved to be right. there are no news about any of them
being beating but I guess that police tried to avoid this.
22:34 CET (GMT+2) - Leaders speaking on Republic square -- The leaders of
Alliance for Change are speaking now on the Republic square. Milan St.
Protic is speaking now, it is not hard what is he speaking about, just like
Zoran Djindjic and Vuk Obradovic before him.
22:30 CET (GMT+2) - Police vehicles blocked streets -- Police vehicles
paralised the city. The streets are practically closed. There are more than
one hundred buses and many other vehicles parked in the city centre. This
can lead to only one thing.
22:26 CET (GMT+2) - Studio B coverage -- Television Studio B just
broadcasted a picture of a man with blooded head. They announced complete
report for later. If you can, watch Studio B, listen to Radio Index and
surf on FreeSerbia.
22:20 CET (GMT+2) - Tanks on the streets? -- We have unconfirmed
information from one of the demonstrants that behind the battle vehicles
were tanks. It seems that police was more than prepared to prevent the
protest walk, at ANY cost.
22:15 CET (GMT+2) - Rocks thrown at the protest walk -- FreeSerbia reports
that rocks were thrown at the protest walk in Kneza Milosa street from
rstate buildings: Trade Court on the corner of Masarikova and Kneza Milosa
street.
22:13 CET (GMT+2) - The rally started -- The rally on the Republic square
started just minutes ago. Zoran Djindjic is speaking.
22:12 CET (GMT+2) - Police from Kosovo used in intervention -- One person
told us that policemen from Kosovo participated in this brutal police
action.
22:11 CET (GMT+2) - All our people are well -- Both our reporter and
photograph are well.
22:10 CET (GMT+2) - Professor beaten -- Goran Milicevic, professor of
Belgrade University was beaten, as Radio Index reported, as well as one
unidentified girl. There are other unconfirmed information about numberous
beatings on the streets of Belgrade. This is chaos.
22:08 CET (GMT+2) - Republic square full -- Republic square is filled with
people who fled in front of the police.
22:06 CET (GMT+2) - Our reporter is well -- We just got news that one of
our reporters who reported from the scene is well.
22:05 CET (GMT+2) - Police infiltration -- Our reporter said that a man in
a leather jacket and his fourties pointed to the police where to strike at
the crowd.
22:04 CET (GMT+2) - People arrested in Knez Miloseva -- Police is arresting
everyone left in Knez Miloseva street. A cameraman got beaten and started
running, a man said that "they are arresting everyone left"
22:01 CET (GMT+2) - Police is taking over the control -- Police forces took
over the control of the city centre. Our reporter said that about 50 empty
police buses are in the area of Knez Miloseva and Nemanjina street. There
is not many regular police officers, most of them are wearing plain clothes
(wearing leather jackets, that is).
21:56 CET (GMT+2) - Four police cars moved through Pasterova -- Four polica
cars and one empty bus moved through Pasterova street.
21:55 CET (GMT+2) - People are moving to Republic square -- About a
thousand people are moving to republic square.
21:51 CET (GMT+2) - Radio Index heavily jammed -- Radio Index, only station
with a full coverage of tonights rally, is being heavily jammed.
21:46 CET (GMT+2) - People are scattering -- People are starting to scatter
in the streets after police intervention. Police in Nemanjina street beat
few people.
21:43 CET (GMT+2) - Police is chasing the people -- The people retreating
to the railway station were chased down Nemanjina street by the police, but
the police stopped now.
21:42 CET (GMT+2) - Police started intervention on Belgrade streets --
Police started to intervention to break up demonstrations
21:41 CET (GMT+2) - People are retreating up Knez Miloseva -- People in the
Knez Miloseva street are retreating towards Srpskih vladara street. The
police is pushing them. The crowd is split in two - one part is retreating
towards railway station and the other remained in Knez Miloseva and
retreating towards Srpskih vladara street.
21:39 CET (GMT+2) - Police intervention! -- Police intervention started.
They are pushing the crowd toward the main railway station. People are
running down Nemanjina street towards the station.
21:37 CET (GMT+2) - Police surrounding the crowd -- Police forces moved
down Nemanjina from Slavija square, surrounding the crowd. This is not
good.
21:33 CET (GMT+2) - New police forces -- Radio Index reported that they got
an unconfirmed information that another group of police is in Kralja
Milutina street near Slavija, behind the crowd. It seems that police is
cuuting off all the possible routes for escape.
21:31 CET (GMT+2) - Four battle vehicles -- Four police battle vehicles
armed with water guns are currently positioned in front of the people in
Knez Miloseva street.
21:29 CET (GMT+2) - Police reinforcments -- A group of heavily equiped
policemen is headed down Bircaninova street. This street is above the crowd
protesting aginst Milosevic. They are shouting "Slobo is Sadam (Husein)"
21:25 CET (GMT+2) - People sat in the street -- People in Knez Miloseva
street sat on the ground in front of the police forces.
21:24 CET (GMT+2) - Water cannons -- Police vehicles are equiped with water
cannons.
21:22 CET (GMT+2) - Stones on the demonstrants -- Someone threw stones at
the people protesting in Belgrade. We have special report that strong
police forces are headed to Kneza Milosa street from Swiss Embassy and
another group is on Terazije, behind the demonstrants, at the McDonald's
restaurant.
21:17 CET (GMT+2) - The situation is tense -- We have a very tense
situation in Knez Miloseva street. It is caused by the police who moved in
action before the whole of the protest walk turned to Nemanjina street.
away from the police. Now the people are pretty angry and awaiting to
resist the possible police intervention.
21:13 CET (GMT+2) - Police intervention? -- Police battle vehicles are
headed for the demonstrants! It seems that we are looking for riots in the
streets of Belgrade.
21:11 CET (GMT+2) - The protest walk stopped -- The head of protest walk
stopped shortly after the turn to Nemanjina street, leaving a part of the
walk in Knez Miloseva street. The police forces are still blocking the way.

21:06 CET (GMT+2) - Police blocked way of demonstrants -- Police forces
have blocked way of protest walk of Alliance for Change in Knez Miloseva
street, which leads to Dedinje. The route have just changed and the people
turned away moving to Slavija square, away from police

Emina,

You're Bosnian. Bosnia is no longer a part of FRY. What do you care about what's going on in Beograd?

Or is it the anti-Milosovic nature of the reports that gets you excited? A real turn-on, eh?

BTW - How come we never hear anything from you about current conditions in Bosnia? eh? multi-ethnic, multi-religious? How about the Bosnian free media? press, radio, tv?

As for your psychiatric studies - what does that get you besides a license to dispense drugs, use others as your human guinea pigs, and charge the poor suckers BIG $$S. Kind of a parasitic way of making a loving.

Psychology IS NOT a science. IT'S VOODOO.

tommygunns