daniela
indonesia/east timor aint yugoslavia.
keep your yank bashing to the subject at hand.

so, you don`t have a capacity to see the conection?

daniela
no, that's not it, i say to she who is so quick to
be narsty...
yes, those evil yankees, yes yes zzzzz...didnt say
i disagreed, darlin, but dont you have more than
enough ammo right here w/o tossing in stuff from a
different part of the world?

l'Em, my man,

Don't get worked up over Danielas logic :-)))

Zoja

Daniella,

Keep up the good work, be strong, and don't let 'em get to you. Your East Timor posts ARE relevant to the subject at hand. The Yugoslavia/Balkan situation has it's unique characteristics, but it is not an isolated event. The battles in Colombia, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Timor/Indonesia, etc., etc., etc. are part of a larger war that is raging across the entire world. The underlying force in all of these situations is western imperialism's strategies to dominate the world. Evil Empire II is on the march!

tommygunns

===============================================

from www.antiwar.com
August 6, 1999

COLOMBIA: A QUAGMIRE AWAITS

By Justin Raimundo

There were two big plane crashes last week, but you would never have known it if your only source of news were the American media. The only plane crash anybody in the U.S. cared about took place off the coast of Martha's Vineyard. Virtually the entire US Coast Guard was mobilized to find the remains of JFK, Jr., and party - and the entire media was mobilized in a similar fashion in covering it. However, nobody really noticed when five US military personnel were shot down in the skies over Colombia's southern jungle, along with three Colombians. These five are the first American casualties in Washington's escalating war against Colombia's leftist guerrilla movements. It is unlikely that they will be the last.

SPY PLANE DOWNED BY CLOUDS?

Yes, yes, I know: the US plane, stuffed to the gills with hi-tech surveillance equipment, "crashed" into a mountain, according to rather laconic news accounts - nothing about how or why. The Time magazine account authoritatively assures us that the aircraft "slammed into a jungle mountain hidden by clouds." Yet, surely it was something a bit more aggressive than clouds that brought down this sophisticated surveillance plane.

THE INVISIBLE MOUNTAIN

The wreckage and the bodies were recovered, with the latter (4 US servicemen and the pilot, Jennifer Odom) shipped back home. So far, however, no one is talking about what else they found at the crash site. The plane was flying over FARC territory at the time, and was loaded down with the kind of equipment one might use to track the precise movements of guerrilla units lurking in the underbrush. In this context, are we really expected to believe that they couldn't see a mountain?

THE FATAL SQUEEZE

The official story is that the sortie was engaged in drug interdiction efforts. The Colombian media, however, reported that the plane had long been an instrument in the hands of the army in its war against the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC). It seems that all FARC radio transmissions have been intercepted and monitored for a period of two months before the crash - providing government forces with the margin of victory in a recent battle. Reeling from a series of major military reversals, the Colombian Army badly needed that victory in order to restore public confidence in the government's ability to rule. Recent guerrilla attacks have occurred uncomfortably close to Bogota, the capital city, alarming the population and giving Pastrana's political enemies an opening to attack the government. The downing of the spy plane represents a serious loss: aside from the loss of the tactical military advantage, the revelation of the extent of US military involvement in the anti-guerrilla campaign is a big political setback for Pastrana. Nationalist sentiment runs deep in Colombia, and the slightest hint of US military intervention is likely to backfire on the government. Caught between the guerrillas and the death squads, Pastrana's neoliberal third camp is being squeezed, perhaps fatally - and the inept US policy of covert intervention may just deliver the deathblow.

FARC YOU

The FARC did not claim responsibility for the downing the aircraft, but issued this warning via the Internet to Washington policymakers: "Colombia is not Kosovo." In an interview with a Chilean newspaper, a FARC commander warned the US not to get too cocky over its casualty-free Kosovo walkover: "We are not Yugoslavia," he averred. "If the United States intervenes it will be another Vietnam."

ANOTHER VIETNAM?

The Commandante is for the most part correct: in many respects, it is Vietnam all over again, complete with all the props - plenty of jungle, widespread poverty, and Marxist guerrillas under every rock. The one difference is Andres Pastrana, the free market "neoliberal" whose policies are designed to bring Colombia into the global market. While Vietnam was ruled by a series of petty tyrants, even leftists have a grudging respect for the courage and persistence of Pastrana, elected in 1998, who is attempting to build what has never existed in Colombia: a truly civil society.

THE PASTRANA FACTOR

Abandoning the central planning and protectionist policies of his predecessors, Pastrana is intent on marketizing the economy - top-heavy with an unproductive public sector - and expanding the middle class. However, free markets, he realizes, can only be created in times of peace. The guerrilla insurgency, launched by the Colombian Communist Party some 30 years ago, arose and took root in response to the grinding poverty and paramilitary death squads that rule the countryside. Rather than pursuing a military solution, which reinforces the very statizing and centralizing tendencies Pastrana has been fighting, the President has been negotiating with the FARC. He has even gone so far as to create a demilitarized zone in the southern jungles, in effect ceding an area the size of Switzerland to the rebels. At a time when guerrilla insurgencies throughout South and Central America are putting down the gun and running candidates in free elections, Pastrana's approach would give the Colombian rebels an opening to come out of the jungle and into the political process.

THE HUMAN RIGHTS SEAL OF APPROVAL

With the former Soviet Union out of business, and Cuba in no position to put Fidel's "internationalist" rhetoric into practice, the rebels are ready to deal - but the Colombian military is not. The US is currently training a thousand-man counterinsurgency force, and American officials claim that "every member has been investigated" and given the Human Rights Seal of Approval. Even if we accept this at face value - a dubious proposition, at best - this fails to address the problem of the paramilitaries, who operate with the collusion of the Colombian military. Their methods are similar to those of the KLA: they go into Indian villages in the countryside and "cleanse" it of the rebels and their sympathizers the way the Albanian Kosovar separatists have gone into Serb villages and driven the inhabitants out. A favorite tactic is the abduction and "disappearing" of the relatives of guerrillas. This is what the great crusaders for "human rights" in the US State Department are supporting.

THE GUERRILLA AND THE CAPITALIST

The sheer stupidity and criminality of the US government's covert war on Colombia's guerrilla movements was vividly dramatized by an astonishing sight: Richard Grasso, president of the New York Stock Exchange embracing guerrilla commandante Raul Reyes. Reyes is the peasant leader of the FARC, whose austerity and selfless dedication have won him the respect even of his enemies. Pastrana, who had canceled his trip to the NYSE because of problems on the home front, engineered the visit. When Grasso volunteered to help in any way he could, Pastrana was ready with his request: meet with the guerrilla leader. In a symbolic act of defiance against the escalating polarization of Colombian politics, Grasso traveled to a remote spot deep in the Colombian jungle to meet this Marxist stalwart. Before the visit was over, Grasso offered to return the guerrillas' hospitality by inviting Reyes to see capitalism in action on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. It was a bravura performance. But, will it work?

THE CORRUPTION OF THE ELITE

Will Colombia's elite get the message and begin to deal with the causes of the insurgency, or will they fall back into an easy dependence on the US, escalating the military campaign and dooming Pastrana to political oblivion? Colombia's corrupt elite is traditionally dependent on brute force to maintain their economic and political stranglehold over the country. If they can gain the cooperation of the US in maintaining the status quo, under the rubric of the War on Drugs, then why should they have any incentive to change their ways? Corrupt, arrogant, and brutal, the ostensibly "anti-Communists" of Colombia are objectively working in tandem with the FARC and other leftist groups to destabilize the Pastrana reforms and destroy the prospects for liberty in the region. Why should we invest in these losers?

SUBSIDIZING DEFEAT

The arrogance and incompetence of Colombia's ruling elite is made possible by the US government, which subsidizes the whole sorry mess. Without US tax dollars, the Colombians would be forced to settle their own problems, in their own way. With Colombia now the third largest recipient of foreign aid, both economic and military - topped only by Israel and Egypt - the big boys in Bogota have no incentive to negotiate.

NEVER SAY NEVER

The Clinton administration wants to increase US aid and involvement, in spite of their protestations that we will never intervene militarily. Remember: with the Clintonians, we can never say never - not when it comes to sending in the troops. In addition, if Clinton fails to succumb to the siren song of interventionism in this case, then a Republican successor will be far more tempted.

THE BACKWATER DOCTRINE

The key to short-circuiting this possibility is for conservatives to learn the lesson of Kosovo: that in the absence of the Cold War, there is no compelling reason for the United States to intervene in backwater regions of the world. And if Colombia is not a backwater, then what is?

H. R. 2606 - THE FOREIGN AID GRAVY TRAIN CONTINUES TO FLOW

I cannot end this column without mentioning the $12.6 billion foreign aid bill, H.R. 2606. This, believe it or not, is supposed to represent a decrease in Clinton's proposed budget, but the alleged "cuts" are elusive and invariably offset by increases in other areas: For example, although economic aid to Israel is cut in half, military aid is doubled. Funds for the IMF and other banking institutions would be less than the administration wants, but still an overall increase. Egypt's generous subsidy gets a token cut, but military aid to the repressive regime, which persecutes Christians as well as radical Muslims, is unchanged. Yet more millions are being transferred from the pockets of US taxpayers to the Swiss banks accounts of Yeltsin's cronies - which is where most of the $725 million in foreign aid to Russia will wind up.

IMAGINE

Clinton is threatening to veto the whole foreign aid package if the GOP's "cuts" reach him intact. This naturally throws the Republicans into a panic, since they really have no substantive difference with the administration on the alleged "need" for US taxpayers to subsidize corruption, incompetence, and death squads the world over. But just imagine, for a moment, if the Republicans stood firm - I know it takes a lot of imagination to conjure such a scenario, but stick with me. Furthermore, imagine that Clinton is not just bluffing and actually vetoes the bill. Why, there wouldn't be any foreign aid this year, not a dime would be spent on fighting guerrillas in faraway jungles or subsidizing American exporters - and wouldn't that be a terrible catastrophe?

DO WE NOW HAVE A "PEACEFUL, UNITED, DEMOCRATIC EUROPE" IN THE BALKANS?

September 24, 1999
By Mary Mostert, Analyst

On March 27th President Clinton explained why we were bombing Yugoslavia in the following words: "The time to put out a fire is before it spreads and burns down the neighborhood. By acting now, we're taking a strong step toward a goal that has always been in our national interest -- a peaceful, united, democratic Europe. For America there is no greater calling than being a peacemaker. But sometimes you have to fight in order to end the fighting."

So, now NATO is in control in Kosovo, and has been since the Yugoslav army withdrew in mid-June. How are we doing in creating a "peaceful, united, democratic" state in Kosovo?

In three months over 90% of the Serbs, most of the Gypsies, Jews, Turk, Egyptians and even about 100,000 ethnic Albanians who lived in Kosovo are now refugees having fled to the "undemocratic" Serbia because they feared they would be killed in KFOR controlled Kosovo.

The world was told, many times, that President Clinton's concern in Kosovo were humanitarian in nature. On May 6th, speaking to a group of refugees from Kosovo at a Refugee Reception Center in Ingelheim, Germany, Clinton said: "Let me begin by thanking Chancellor Schroeder, the representatives of his government who are here and all the people of Germany for their strong, strong leadership in NATO, in defense of the people of Kosovo and for making this place of refuge and shelter for people in need. "

Hmm-m. How many Serb, Montenegrin, Jewish, Goran, Gypsy, Turk and Egyptian refugees from Kosovo, something like 90% of the Kosovo minorities, are being cared for in German camps today? I haven't found any signs that ANY of the fleeing minority Kosovars are fleeing to Germany - or other nations. They all seem to be fleeing to Slobodan Milosevic's un-democratic Serbia.

"It is very important that every freedom-loving person in the entire world know the story of Kosovo." Clinton told the refugees. "It is important that people not forget that what is called ethnic cleansing is not some abstract idea; it is real people with real families and real dreams being uprooted from their homes, their schools, their work, their children, their parents, their husbands and wives. NATO has acted in Kosovo because we believe ethnic cleansing must be opposed, resisted, reversed. We are doing all we can to bring aid to the victims of the violence."

Freedom loving persons? How about the freedom of all of Kosovo's minority groups? It's just amazing to me how selective Clinton and his ilk are about the rights of minorities. His concern for them seems to depend entirely on the color of their skin. If they are black, we hear a whole lot about minority rights. If they are Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, Gorans, or Montenegrin in Kosovo - it's like neither the minorities nor the rights even exist.

The Raska-Prizren Diocese of Serbian Orthodox Church has documented the murder of 350 Serbs, by name, since NATO and the KLA took control of Kosovo, between June and August 1999. That would represent something like .15% of the approximately 200,000 Serbs in Kosovo when the bombing began. This figure does not include the hundreds who have been kidnapped by the KLA and who have never been heard from again. This only includes those the Church has buried. About 90% of the Serbs have fled the province, compared with about 30% of the ethnic Albanians who were refugees between March 24th and June 11th.

An equivalent figure, .15% of the 1,800,000 ethnic Albanians were in Kosovo when the bombing began would be 2700. And, although we have been told that many thousands were killed by the Serbs - up to 100,000 during the bombing, nothing like that many bodies have been discovered. The actual figures mentioned by forensic experts who were rushed to Kosovo the document the "Serb killings" are only a few hundred. So far proof that thousands of ethnic Albanians were killed by Serbs simply has not materialized. Since NATO occupation, not only have most of the minorities fled the KLA-NATO occupation, but KLA opposition among ethnic Albanians claim up to 150,000 ethnic Albanians who oppose the KLA also have fled because their lives are in danger from the KLA terrorists.

According to Fred Abrahams of the Human Rights Watch, in 1998 1200 people died in Kosovo. Of that number 140 were Serbs. That would indicate, if only 10% of the population was Serb, and 90% were Albanian, which were the figures given consistently by the United Nations, that a higher percentage of Serbs were killed in 1998 than Albanians. Others put the number of Serbs killed at 300 - most of them police and other government officials. The 1200 people killed in Kosovo in 1998, which supposedly was so horrendous that America bombed Yugoslavia for 79 days to solve the problem, compares as follows with the numbers of people killed in other ethnic conflicts around the world: Sudan - 2 million, Tibet - 1 million in the last 7 years, Rwanda - 500,000, Chechnya - 80,000, Turkey - 31,000, Ethiopia - 15,000, KOSOVO - 2,000 (source NBC News) The Human Rights Watch claims the dead in Kosovo was only 1200. NBC used a nice round figure of 2,000. We do not yet have the number of people killed in East Timor in the last couple of weeks while the United Nations sat on its hands waiting for permission from the invaders, Clinton's friends in Indonesia, to "intervene."

Increasingly around the world this situation is being discussed. ` Ghana's Foreign Minister, James Victor Gbeho said yesterday at the United Nations: `We have seen in the past few months the kind of resources that the world has been willing and able to mobilize in the Balkans at short notice,'' Ghana's foreign minister, James Victor Gbeho, said Tuesday. ``We do not see the same response to the tragedies of Africa,'' he said.

Clinton responded to that rising concern of US hypocrisy in "humanitarian" matters saying, ""I know that some are troubled that the United States and others cannot respond to every humanitarian catastrophe in the world," Clinton said. "We cannot do everything everywhere. But simply because we have different interests in different parts of the world does not mean we can be indifferent to the destruction of innocents in any part of the world." Clinton defended NATO's decision to begin an air war against Serbia, saying that it followed a consensus in the Security Council that Serbian atrocities against Kosovo's ethnic Albanians were unacceptable, the New York Times observes in today's paper.

What is troubling is the willingness to literally make up "atrocities" supposedly committed by Serbs in Kosovo, which have since been proven false, to justify spending billions of dollars to bomb Yugoslavia for 79 days, while the Clinton administration simply ignored really the death of literally millions of non-whites around the world.

Why? Has the situation in Europe now been stabilized with the withdrawal of an intact Yugoslav army from Kosovo and the occupation by KFOR and its obvious ally, the KLA? Don't count on it. Sources inside Yugoslavia are predicting the KLA will now turn its weapons against KFOR forces since all minorities have been effectively cleansed..

What seems to be occurring is an increasingly jaundiced look at the so-called "Western Democracy" which NATO intends to force on the Balkans. It is becoming increasingly clear that the so-called "democratic forces" in Serbia are losing, not gaining ground against Milosevic. Efforts to bomb out, freeze out and destroy civilian electrical and industrial plants have not driven the Serbs into the arms of NATO. Anti-Milosevic forces which were able to bring 2 million Serbs into the streets of Belgrade two years ago are able to muster only a few thousand protesters today. The protesters are not blocked by Serb police. The public is simply not supporting the confused and splintered parties who are promised money from America for their opposition to Milosevic. Their anti-Milosevic campaigns are increasingly viewed in Serbia as part of NATO's aggression.

All of this could very well herald the start of a much wider war than we've seen so far. If the KLA turns its weapons on KFOR forces, it is not clear what the NATO response would be. At least one Yugoslav source tells me that it would only take a "few days" for the KLA to totally dismantle the KFOR forces based on the weapons it has kept. Then what would happen? Would Clinton send in more troops? Would they ask for the Yugoslav troops to come back in? Would Milosevic just stand back and wait until the KLA and KFOR killed each other off? From what I'm hearing, this could begin as early as this fall. Stay tuned. Contrary to a lot of Western wishful thinking, the Yugoslav army is still intact, and still well-trained and knowledgeable. It wouldn't be the first time in history that the Serbs waited until their enemies weakened each other, and then moved in to regain their land.

From www.emperors-clothes.com

SPANISH EXPERTS SEE NO SERBIAN GENOCIDE IN KOSOVO
by Pablo Ordaz

commentary by Jared Israel (9-24-99)

[The website http:// www.emperors-clothes.com encourages everyone to reproduce the following report in full including this note.]

The following article from El Pais (The Country), a mainstream Spanish magazine, is most important. For months we've been barraged with stories claiming Serbs killed thousands of ethnic Albanians and dumped them in mass graves in Kosovo. Recently I did an internet search for newspaper articles, appearing in the past 90 days, and including the words 'Kosovo' and 'mass grave.' The report came back: 'More than 1000 - too many to list.' I had to limit the search to articles in the NY Times and even then came up with 80, nearly one a day.

It has been a giant air balloon of anti-Serbian publicity, but now comes the pin: Spanish forensic experts, just back from Northern Kosovo where, they were told, they would have to inspect the worst Serbian atrocities, found no mass graves and no evidence of torture.

We received this article at 11 PM on 9/23 and had a translation the next morning thanks to the dedicated work of Herb Foerstal.

Below is the article from El Pais, followed by a commentary.


=================================================


EL PAIS

Pablo Ordaz, Madrid

Spanish police and forensic experts have not found proof of Genocide in the North of Kosovo. Prisoners [in the prison in] Istok were shot after the bombardment of NATO.

Crimes of War - yes, Genocide - no. This was definitely shown yesterday by the group of Spanish experts formed by officials from the Scientific Police and Civilian Forensics that has just returned from Istok, the Zone in the North of Kosovo under the control of the Legion. {Spanish Legion? - EC} 187 cadavers found and analyzed in 9 villages were buried in individual graves, oriented for the most part toward Mecca out of respect for the religious beliefs of the Albanian Kosovars and without sign of torture. "There were no mass graves. For the most part the Serbs are not as bad as they have been painted," reflected the forensic official Emilio Pérez Pujo.

That was not the only irony. Also questioned were the successive counts that are being offered by the "allies" on the tragedy of Kosovo. "I have been reading the data from UN said Pérez Pujo, Director of the Forensic Anatomical Institute of Cartagena. "And they began with 44,000 deaths. Then they lowered it to 22,000. And now they're going with 11,000. I look forward to seeing what the final count will really be." The Spanish Mission which should now submit a report to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague, left from Madrid in the beginning of the month of the August with the feeling that they were going on a road to hell. "They told us that we were going to the worst zone of Kosovo. That we should prepare ourselves to perform more than 2000 autopsies. That we would have to work until the end of November. The result is very different. We only found 187 cadavers and now we are going to return," explained the chief inspector, Juan López Palafox, responsible for the Office of Anthropology and Scientific Police.

The forensic people, as well as the police, applied their experience in Rwanda in order to determine what occurred in Kosovo at least in that section assigned to the Spanish detachment and they were not able to find evidence of genocide.

"In the former Yugoslavia," said López Palafox, "crimes were committed, some no doubt horrible, but they derived from the war. In Rwanda we saw 450 corpses of women and children, one on top of another, all with their heads broken open." The Chief Inspector added that in Kosovo, on the contrary, they had found many isolated corpses. "It gives the impression that the Serbs gave a choice to the families to leave their homes. If some member of the clan, for whatever reason, decided to remain, upon returning they were found dead from a shot or by whatever other method." {our emphasis}

One of the members of the Spanish mission shed light on events in the Istok prison, bombed at the end of May by NATO planes. The work, directed by López Palafox and Pérez Pujol was aimed at solving the following mystery: who killed the more than 100 prisoners - the bombs of NATO or the bullets of Serbian soldiers? The answer, according to the preliminary studies, is clear. Some of the cadavers analyzed had shrapnel wounds and therefore clearly appeared to have been killed by the bombardment. But others died of clear clean bullet wounds, perhaps from the bullets of machine guns. The most likely thesis is that after the bombardment, the prison inmates tried to flee and were shot by Serbian guards.

*************************************************

Commentary by Jared Israel

I've been reading mass grave stories for most of 24 hours. I hope to do a detailed analysis soon. Meanwhile, here are a few observations:

* You would expect the stories to be horrifying. What is surprising is that they are so repetitious - using the same phrases - that reading them is exhausting.

* The stories are often written in semi-fictional style, as in "A cap lay on the ground, stained red near the back. 'Who knew the Serbs would do this,' asked the gaunt Albanian. There were tears in his eyes." This type of writing produces a suspension of disbelief and makes the reader susceptible to unsubstantiated claims.

* Evidence, if any, is anecdotal; sources are vague.

* The discovery or even the rumor of a grave is cited (often by some authority figure) as proof of Serbian atrocities. These atrocities are then discussed in great, though entirely speculative, detail. Trial by media. It is enough to make you gaga, especially when you read this 'news' for hours at a time. The mental equivalent of smog.

* Arguments are circular. Dead bodies are found. The assumptions are made that: they are Albanians; they are civilians; they were killed by Serbs; the Serbs were soldiers or policemen. These speculations, once uttered, become part of the record, cited in later articles as established fact.

The Spanish experts were told they'd find 2000 bodies. They saw 187. Many appear to have died when NATO bombed a prison or afterwards, trying to escape. The only war crime involved here is NATO's. It is a war crime to bomb any non military target, let alone a prison, the ultimate sitting duck.

The forensic scientists speculate that the remaining cadavers are of Albanian civilians killed by Serbian troops or police. These people are the only possible victims of war crimes.

Here we offer a caution. Every official in a NATO country is under pressure to parrot the NATO line. These Spanish experts nevertheless aired their reservations publicly. Note that when they discuss the individuals with bullet wounds they make clear they are speculating:

"It gives the impression that the Serbs gave a choice to the families to leave their homes..." {our emphasis}

Indeed, how could they know these were Albanians ordered by Serbian police to leave their homes and shot when they refused? As they note, there were no witnesses. In any case, given KLA control of Kosovo, Albanian witnesses are most likely their agents or under their domination - and the KLA is infamous for dealing harshly with those who resist. Lying has been a key part of the secessionist arsenal for the past ten years - a weapon in a battle to win international public support.

There are, of course, a lot of dead people in Kosovo. For a year and a half, a fierce war raged between the KLA terrorists and the Yugoslav Army and police. The KLA has had a free hand in Kosovo since early June, plenty of time to move bodies around, dress soldiers as civilians, rehearse pro-KLA 'grieving relatives.' So let's take the 'murdered civilians who resisted' with a big grain of salt.

We say this NOT because Serbs are incapable of atrocities, but because the Albanian secessionists have made lying a weapon in the war of ideas and because we support what was a pillar of American justice: that a person (moreso a people) is innocent until proven guilty. It is not enough to have guilt asserted in the press, or 'proven' by the unchallenged testimony of interested parties in a polarized society. The attempt to use these false proofs merely proves NATO is trying to railroad the Serbs.

That said, let us honor these heroic Spanish scientists and policemen. They have risked NATO's wrath -and their careers - to defend the truth.

Their bravery and decency give one hope.

tommy, you are the best.
Marry me !

ha ha

That spanish person is a little late to try and find evidence......huh

Oh before i get the whole you hate serbian people crap again. Its Butchers i hate and rapist. All over the world, but to keep it to the subject.....

Emina

Daniella,

Best offer I've had in a long time :O) But, I must confess that I tried marriage once (for 7 years) and came to the conclusion that married life wasn't for me. Now, I've lived alone for so many years and have become quite set in my ways. Maybe in my old age I'll try it again, for companionship (he, he).

tommygunns

Emina,

Don't be so defensive! I've never said you hate Serbian people. However, you do parrot the usual propaganda. If your hatred is reserved for butchers and rapists, then you must share that hatred with all parties in the Balkans, for it seems from my research that these kinds of crimes have been committed by all sides - but that's not unusual in a war. Therefore, you'll find butchers, rapists, murders, whatever in every nation that has ever gone to war.

BTW - HATE is a VERY strong word. It should be used sparingly. One must be careful with hatred and fear, two powerful passions that have a tendancy to turn around and bite back. There's an old saying that "one becomes the thing one hates or fears the most".

As for the Spanish forensics team. Why are they late? Forensic investigations are often carried out years after a crime. There's really no time limit. They are still investigating crime scenes in Bosnia.

tommygunns

tommy, that was a joke; I am married already.
not that it matter particularly

Tommy.

What you state is exactly the difference between someone having an opinion based on research and someone having lived it. The latter makes your point of view quite a lot different.

As for the defensive part, I can understand that very well. Research the old archives.

As for propaganda, is a group of people living in the whole of the former Yugoslavia, from all ages, all religions and all the nationalty groups so untrustworthy that it spreads only propaganda??? Because these are the very people Emina gets her info from (take it from me, hon
:-))), not the usual senseless press babble.

Ask before you judge, Tommy. It would make you look a lot less naive!

Zoja

TOMMY
Defensive you don't know what defensive is. You talk from studybooks, newspapers and websites.
Go life under a regime for awhile then see who's the one who's defensive.
Afterall YOU my friend were the one to point out it was NOT good to blame"only" one party, and i told you that i didn't, and you call me defensive?????
Very judgemental for a studybook,website eater.

Emina
PS look around you for a change and see who's most judgemental. You'll be surprised. Oh and BTW HATE its not in my capacity to hate it was merely to make statement!

Tommy

Why are the Spanish late, you ask. Well, Methinks you can answer that for yourself. Mass graves were detected already during and after the war. I remember the story of, I believe it was a teacher, who stayed behind in Pristina serving as a grave digger. In the mean time the man kept a list. Many others like him were active in Kosova. As we speak day by day, people are being found and identified. The same Finnish research team ,who is still working to identify people form mass graves in Bosnia (one of whom they discovered my brother in law, so that Bosnia story was pretty much old news), is working hard for months now identifying everyone. Same story will count for Kosova. Years afterwards graves will still be discovered and missing people identified. My brother in law was in a mass grave for five years, I am sure many families in Kosova from eiter side in the conflict will have the same fate.

The Spanish therefore are lagging far, far behind. For the rest I can tell you I have the greatest respect for the people in the monastery at Raska and Prizren, working their butts off to document everything. And who btw i