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Archive through January 14, 2000

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(@stanislav)
Eminent Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 28
 

Walex, drake,

I don't have anything that would make me to hate NATO and wish a war with this block. What I see is that NATO is growing and approaching to our borders. I see a potential threat here. And recently USA refused to sign a treaty of denying nuclear explosions tests, also broke a pact of common agreement that no one will create a system of anti-nuclear defense, so that someone could desire nuclear war, feeling himself protected.

Stanislav


   
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(@stanislav)
Eminent Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 28
 

Adder21,

New York-based Human Rights Watch on Wednesday protested Russia’s closure of Chechnya’s borders to Chechen males between the ages of 10 and 60. The measure was intended to help the military screen Chechen men for ties with the militants.

And what is so wrong about this? Nobody kills them, federals are just checking male population for connection with rebels. It is absolutely normal, and far more humanistic, than allowing rebels to pass through blockposts as civilians. This initiative was started after Shali's events, when such events happened (rebels passed into the liberated territory as civilians).

Stanislav


   
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(@balalaika)
Honorable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 553
 

>>> I don't know who are you. You seem to know Russian language (but you are not Russian), so where are you from? Ukraine, Latvia, Litva, Estonia, Georgia or Azeirbadzhan?

So, kakogo hera tebya eto tak e...t? Ya zhe ne sprashivayu tvoyu natsional'nost' (hotya po tonu postingov vsyo ponimaemo...)


   
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(@balalaika)
Honorable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 553
 

>>> passed into the liberated territory as civilians

Give me a break! There is no need to disguise as civilians in russian "liberated zone" - 20 USD renumeration to hungry russian conscripts will do the trick.


   
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(@balalaika)
Honorable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 553
 

2 Stanislav

Bon appetite to hungry russian conscripts (i wonder where they got the foodstuff...)!

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/20000113/wl/russia_chechnya_btx.html


   
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(@balalaika)
Honorable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 553
 

>>>> And what is so wrong about this? Nobody kills them, federals are just checking male population for connection with rebels. It is absolutely normal, and far more humanistic, than allowing rebels to pass through blockposts as civilians. This initiative was started after Shali's events, when such events happened (rebels passed into the liberated territory as civilians).

Picture of russian "humanitarian mission" (if we believe to russian propaganda and Stanislav):

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/p/ap/20000113/wl/russia_chechnya_aja.html

A Chechen refugee says goodbye to his family going back to the rebel republic while he is forced to stay behind, because Russian authorities have banned all Chechen males aged 10 to 60 from entering or leaving Chechnya, in Sleptsovskaya, Russia Thursday, Jan. 13, 2000. Foreign criticism mounted over a new Russian regulation preventing most Chechen men from entering or leaving the breakaway region.

P.S. btw, balalaika predicts that the new regulation will be cancelled as quickly as the notorious russian ultimatum to "eliminate" anybody left in Grozny. Let's wait one or two more days ...


   
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(@stanislav)
Eminent Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 28
 

Adder21,

"Cities, villages, hospitals, market places and refugee convoys and corridors have now become targets. These acts against civilians constitute war crimes."

Wow, and THEY teach us to that to spit is not ethical. NATO killed 79 refugees in one time only. They've said: sorry and that was all. Nobody said it was a war crime. A little unfair, isn't it?

Why is Chechnya important to Russia?

Because it is a part of Russian Federation. If it was not Chechnya, we say, Siberia, it would be all the same. Cause it is our territory, and we have full right to defend it from terrorists.

An old Russian woman who lived in Chechnya her entire life told British Independent Television that the Yeltsin government is "a bunch of irresponsible, murderous alcoholics who should be residing in prison, not the Kremlin."

That's people's opinion. Maybe they are right partly. But now goverment has changed, didn't you noticed that?

The Chechen economy, already at the bottom after 75 years of Soviet control, was destroyed during weeks of ferocious air attacks on industrial plants, bridges, utilities, and residential areas.

The Yugoslavian economy was destroyed during weeks of ferocious air attacks on industrial plants, bridges, utilities, and residential areas. Ok?

Chechens I met in Grozny told me blood-freezing stories of people crowded into cattle cars without food, water, or bathrooms; corpses traveling with children; the killing of protesters at the railway stations by KGB guards.

It was in socialistic times. Russian people suffered too of socialistic regime, and no one knows how many died because of repressions of Stalin. So what, we should accuse modern Germany in its past sins?

Vyacheslav Bakhmin, Russia's Deputy Foreign Minister for Human Rights(!), calmly spoke of "unavoidable" violations of rights. The Chechens were even accused of blowing up their own apartment buildings to make the Russians look bad.

The war is always leading to violations of rights, don't you think? And what about Chechens were accused, so why not? Do you know that they exploded some capacitors with chemical substances and accused Russia in using chemical weapons. After this, you can wait anything from them. www.kavkaz.org, go there and read some news. One of news was titled: "Chechen soldiers are bravely fighting with Russian criminal band formations".

2Turk:
True, three apartment buildings in Moscow were blown up: The Kremlin blames the Chechens. But so far no one has claimed responsibility.

But before the explosions one of rebel leaders promised that such actions will be done. So it is hard to suspect someone else.

Remember the Reichstag fire?

Now they are comparing Russia with nazist Germany... Well, in the times of Serbia's bombings, Clinton was compared with Hitler also, so that is probably normal for the information war.

2grin:

Quiz:
Why are russian dead routinely understated and chechen rebel dead routinely overstated in russian reports?


Answer: You think so because you haven't saw the site www.kavkaz.org Each day it said that at least 200 russians were killed, and 1-2 rebels heroically died. Someone calculated that now Russia is without army, because according to this source, all soldiers are dead.

I've just remembered one funny thing. When at the diplomatic meeting, west politics accused Russia in creating humanitary catastrophe, Russian minister of foreign affairs took the world's map and offered them to show Chechnya at the map. After that, no one could show where it is.

Stanislav


   
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(@ultrarussiannationalist)
Honorable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 504
 

Balalaika, cyka blya zakroi svoi ebalnik.
Skakoi pamoiki tbl vilis? Skaji mne, gde tbl radilsa gnida.


   
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(@balalaika)
Honorable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 553
 

2 Ultra Russian gnida

>>> Skaji mne, gde tbl radilsa gnida.

Kogda stavish vopros, ne zabud' ispol'zovat' volshebnoe slovo 'Skaji mne, POZHALUSTA'.


   
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(@balalaika)
Honorable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 553
 

Fresh news - balalaika's prediction (from Friday, January 14, 2000 - 05:56 am) already comes true - russians are going to revoke their recent barbaric regulation for male chechens 10-60 y.o.

Ôåäåðàëüíîå ïðàâèòåëüñòâî ìîæåò ñêîððåêòèðîâàòü ðåøåíèå ðîññèéñêèõ ãåíåðàëîâ, ñîãëàñíî êîòîðîìó â ×å÷íå áûëè îãðàíè÷åíû â ñâîèõ ïåðåäâèæåíèÿõ âñå ëèöà ìóæñêîãî ïîëà îò 10 äî 60 ëåò.

Âèöå-ïðåìüåð , ìèíèñòð Ì×Ñ Ñåðãåé Øîéãó ñêàçàë ñåãîäíÿ æóðíàëèñòàì, ÷òî ýòî ðåøåíèå âîåííûõ ñêîðåå âñåãî íå îñòàíåòñÿ â åãî íûíåøíåì âèäå. Íàïîìíèì, ÷òî íà Çàïàäå ïîäîáíûå ìåðû ðîññèéñêèõ ãåíåðàëîâ ðàñöåíèëè êàê ãðóáîå íàðóøåíèå ïðàâ ÷åëîâåêà.

Source: echo.msk.ru/7news/


   
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(@stanislav)
Eminent Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 28
 

balalaika,

A Chechen refugee says goodbye to his family going back to the rebel republic while he is forced to stay behind, because Russian authorities have banned all Chechen males aged 10 to 60 from entering or leaving Chechnya, in Sleptsovskaya, Russia Thursday, Jan. 13, 2000.

So what? He is not going to die, he says good bye, not farewell. If he is not a rebel, he is safe.

Kogda stavish vopros, ne zabud' ispol'zovat' volshebnoe slovo 'Skaji mne, POZHALUSTA'.

Are you ashamed of your nationality? Or you don't want to ashame your nationality? I don't care what is your nationality. I was just curious, in what country are you living and what opinion do you represent.

>>> passed into the liberated territory as civilians
Give me a break! There is no need to disguise as civilians in russian "liberated zone" - 20 USD renumeration to hungry russian conscripts will do the trick.


Well, I suppose if someone will try to bribe russian soldier for allowing to pass freely, he is automatically assumed to be a rebel, so I would not wish someone to try bribing... briber can be shot. At least I can't imagine a soldier, who would agree to let a rebel go for money.

Stanislav


   
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(@stanislav)
Eminent Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 28
 

balalaika,

A Chechen refugee says goodbye to his family going back to the rebel republic while he is forced to stay behind, because Russian authorities have banned all Chechen males aged 10 to 60 from entering or leaving Chechnya, in Sleptsovskaya, Russia Thursday, Jan. 13, 2000.

So what? He is not going to die, he says good bye, not farewell. If he is not a rebel, he is safe.

Kogda stavish vopros, ne zabud' ispol'zovat' volshebnoe slovo 'Skaji mne, POZHALUSTA'.

Are you ashamed of your nationality? Or you don't want to ashame your nationality? I don't care what is your nationality. I was just curious, in what country are you living and what opinion do you represent.

>>> passed into the liberated territory as civilians
Give me a break! There is no need to disguise as civilians in russian "liberated zone" - 20 USD renumeration to hungry russian conscripts will do the trick.


Well, I suppose if someone will try to bribe russian soldier for allowing to pass freely, he is automatically assumed to be a rebel, so I would not wish someone to try bribing... briber can be shot. At least I can't imagine a soldier, who would agree to let a rebel go for money.

Stanislav


   
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(@balalaika)
Honorable Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 553
 

2 Stanislav,

>>> At least I can't imagine a soldier, who would agree to let a rebel go for money.

If you have trouble imaging, just go back to the reality of russian wars. any example? ok, remember what happened in budenovs when basaev bribed his way well into the russian territory, and so what? no shooting happened when he provided money to the brave (but poor and hungry) russian soldiers.


   
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(@stanislav)
Eminent Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 28
 

balalaika,

Ôåäåðàëüíîå ïðàâèòåëüñòâî ìîæåò ñêîððåêòèðîâàòü ðåøåíèå ðîññèéñêèõ ãåíåðàëîâ, ñîãëàñíî êîòîðîìó â ×å÷íå áûëè îãðàíè÷åíû â ñâîèõ ïåðåäâèæåíèÿõ âñå ëèöà ìóæñêîãî ïîëà îò 10 äî 60 ëåò.

So russians are not beasts, yes? So they care about civilians?

Stanislav


   
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 zis
(@zis)
New Member
Joined: 25 years ago
Posts: 1
 

In the cource of this heated (to say the least) discussion,
some seem to forget, or plainly ignore the following little facts
about the whole situation in Caucasus and Asia at the moment:

1) The starting point of the war was Chechen incursion into Dagestan -
the country which is a subject of Russia. Most of Western mass media call
that "armed incursion into Dagestan blamed on Chechens". I think using the
word "blamed" is incorrect, since Shamil Basayev openly declared in his
speech on TV that the goal of Chechens was to establish fundamentalist
Islamic state in Dagestan.
What is interesting, is that at the same time, same happened in Kyrgyzstan,
another Republic of former USSR. There, also armed militants seized control
of several mountain villages, taking hostages and declaring, too, their goal
is to establish fundamentalist Islamic state in Central Asia.
The style of both operations was almost identical - secretly smuggle weapons
and build bases, then suddenly taking peaceful population hostage and
military incursion. Both operations were coordinated by Arab instructors and
militants were trained in Chechya and in Tajikistan.
Looks too coordinated to be just coincidence. Both incursions were drawn back
- by Russian forces in Dagestan, and jointly by Kyrgyz and Uzbek armed forces
in Kyrgyzstan.

2) After the Chechen militants were pushed back into Chechnya, their leaders
promised terrorist acts against Russia, and immediately bombings followed in
Moscow and in Vladikavkaz (Dagestan). Couple of days ago, in Chehcnya, Russian
forces found proofs that the bombings were connected with Chechya. (check Yahoo)
Another link to Central Asia - the explosive components used in Moscow, and
found in Chechnya are identical to those used in Uzbekistan last February, when
several car bombs were blown throughout the city in attempt to assasinate Uzbek
president. In Uzbekistan, some of the bombers were caught, and it became known,
that they, too were trained in Chechnya by Arab instructors. Another little
coincidence.

3) Prolonged war in Chehcnya benefits U.S. not only politically - as a reason to
build up negative image of Russia as "enemy" - but economically also - check out
Tbilisi agreement to build oil pipeline from Turkmenistan avoiding Russian territory
orchestrated by U.S., who owns major stakes in the planned venture.
It also benefits U.S. by distracting terrorist forces and funds, which otherwise
could be directed against U.S.

The conclusion to all of this is yours, but mine is one that Chechens dying under
artillery shells are pawns of big international politics orchestrated by some
"unidentified Arab forces" and, to some extent U.S. both of which benefit from the war directly.
Sorry, no URL's, but the above facts (1), 2), 3)) are widely known, and it takes
two minutes on Yahoo to find more reading about these.


   
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