balalaika,

no shooting happened when he provided money to the brave (but poor and hungry) russian soldiers.

Well, can you give me a source of this information?

And before making such statements (that russian soldiers are poor and hungry) you better study the current military situation in Chechnya. No one complained yet for the equipment, and payments. Wounded soldiers in the hospital said that they will return in Chechnya as soon as possible.

2ZIS: for logical thinking human beings the conclusion is obvious.

Stanislav

ZIS,

The Dagestan uprising was spontaneous revolt by long oppressed peoples who are reeling under worst form of brutal rule by remnants of corrupt communist apparatchiks who are in power in Dagestan supported by crooks and robber barons currrently ruling Russia. Chechen fighters went to the rescue of their brothers, who had appealed for help in combating the ruthless Russian Army and their local Dagestani henchmen. The Chechens and Dagestani are one people forcibly separated by Russia as part of its policy of divide and rule.

Secondly, the Russians are cleverly playing the Islamic bogeyman card by branding the rebels as dangerous Islamic terrorist. These chrages are lies cooked up by KGB's skilled disinformers. The bombings in Moscow were most likely carried out by Russian political provocateurs as a pretext for Moscow hardliners to invade Chechnya and intimidate freedom movements in other parts of Russia.

Thirdly it was with Clinton's military, diplomatic and financial blessings, Moscow invaded Tiny Chechnya. Why was Cliton Administration, which had just ordered Indonesia to get out of East Timor and gave it independence, busy helping russia to crush Chechens, the survivors of an entire nation sent to Stalin's death camp? The Clinton administration had backed the crooks and robber barons running Kremlin lest the regime collapses. This would expose democrats to a tirade of republican accusations in election year, and spark Congressional investigations of financila chicanery between Washington and Moscow thet would make Clintons hanky panky with Chinese bribsters seem mere chop suey.

Anti Racist,

Chechen fighters went to the rescue of their brothers, who had appealed for help in combating the ruthless Russian Army and their local Dagestani henchmen. The Chechens and Dagestani are one people forcibly separated by Russia as part of its policy of divide and rule

Ooo.... What you've said is a new info for me. I thought Dagestan people were not very glad with their "brothers" invasion. Strange thing, but they were glad when federal troops restrored order and usual way of life. You should examine the situation of this summer and recheck the Dagestan reaction.

Stanislav

By pal ( - 206.171.134.229) on Friday, January 14, 2000 - 01:15 am:
cossack

Can you prove that what the muslims know
about life and death are false? Come on
- use all your greatest research and the
works of all your philosophers. Bad words
do not count for argument. Be Logical.


WHAT IS LOGIC?

Here are a few angles on the World War II argument:

1. Everybody (mostly the Russian contingency on this board) negates the fact that
the Americans bombed the hell out of the Germans until few factories remained. This led to a greater probability of success for the Russians at
Kursk and Stalingrad since the Luftwaffe was completely destroyed. The tank totals at Kursk were 4,000 Russian to 2,800 German. I guarantee that if the Germans had more tanks, they would have used them in this momentum-swinging battle. Fact is, most of the German economic infastructure (productivity) was eliminated.

2. The American involvement (or lack of) in the European theater of war was also due to political ideology. Nazis were fighting communists. America did not care which side suffered heavy losses. It was like choosing the lesser of two evils.

3. The exact reason why only 500,000 Americans died (in both Europe and the Pacific) was due to the tactics used in battle. It was unacceptable to lose millions of soldiers on foreign soil. Therefore, loss-reduction tactics were used. The Russians knew nothing of this and sent thousands to their unneccessary deaths.
In saying all this, i am by no means totally influenced by the American attitude that "we won the war". The entire nature of the conflict was for the coopoeration between the active participants. That is why Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin met. I'm sure Stalin relished the notion that American bombers conducted hundreds of sorties a day over the skies of Germany.

You Conspiracy freeks are a hoot. Why does everything need to have a dark underlying conspiracy. Maybe the Chechens don't want to be under Russian rule. and maybe the Russians don't want anymore terrorist attacks. Why not keep it simple.

You mean the Americans were involved in WW2

Good comments Suleyman

Soleyman:
I would agree with you on many parts in your last posting, nevertheless you are forgetting that a lot of people who died during german occupation of USSR were civilians. My grandparents were living in Ukrain during german invasion. They spend couple years in German concentration camp and were liberated by Soviet army. The story is not very picturistic.

Now, I do not know how ww2 is related to what is happening today in Chechnya. All, please, let keep it on the topic.

Thanks

The Russian Army is Haunted by the Chechen "Spirit". Muslims call it God's help assisting the oppressed people.

This is a great article which explains why the russian army is perplexed, confused, afraid and lost in fighting the chechens. otherwise, can ANYONE tell me how can an army of 100,000 men and equipped with all kind of weapons is not capable of defeating 3,000 chechens???


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-01/14/070l-011400-idx.html

ZIS>>> A beautiful post. Only one mistake, Dagestan is a region, not a country.

"Anti Racist">> If what happened in Dagestan was a revolt, then in Kuwait it was a revolt too, supported by Iraqi brothers. If it was a revolt why do you think Chechen refugees didn't go back there? Because they knew that after what their (refugees') males did to Dagestani people (if you don't know, you better read more on that topic!), they won't be welcomed.
P.S. We (USA) did nothing for East Timor, except selling weapons to Indonesian militia, and later provided tech support for Australia.

Suleyman, to correct your numbers of american WW2 losses. They did not lose as much as 500,000. It was less like 300,000. Dont argue with me, i will be forced to prove my point.

bosna;
I just read the article, thank you.
I am supprise by you message it seems that we read the different story.
"Spirit" is name for afgani fighters, that what this article said. The fact that chechen terrorists are using same tactics does not make them "Spirit". Also, the same civilian who said what terrorists can get in and out,said that majority of them are not from Chechnya.

I would like to ask you to use whole article, not just part which is appropriate for your argument.

Also, igor, caucasian, drake and others have pointed out many reason why this war is not over (in addition to western and russian news agencies). If you really want an answer please read the previous postings. In addition where did you get number - 3,000. Only in Grozny, accoriding to world news agencies, there are 2,000-5,000 fighters.

thanks

Suleyman, you said:
"I guarantee that if the Germans had more tanks, they would have used them in this momentum-swinging battle." You guarantee? meaning you can prove it? Well i would like to see it now. Guarantee it, come on.

Ultra,
The word "guarantee" is to be replaced by "in all likelihood". That's the problem with messages on the internet. Everything is taken so literally. I even think that you knew what I meant by the statement, but to be annoying, you isolated this formality and used it as an attempt to insult my use of English. If you wish to resort to this type of knit-picking, I will be obliged to retort with similar tactics. I will also be forced to prove my point as well about the total number of US casualties. It's a mere conflict among numbers and by disputing a discrepancy of 200,000 will not prove any point.