Why would the chechens ever surrender? There is no incentive for them to do so. They have already learned that if they hold out long enougth the Russians will give up and go home. Plus by surrenedering they will face being arrested for the bombings the Russians claim they did. I find it interesting the way the Russians have handeled this situation. The responded to terrorist acts with a full fledged war. Where other countries respond to terrorist strikes with sergical bombing a few targets (payback) and call it a day. But then again Chechnya is a part of Russia (a breakaway republic) so could this be considered a civil war? I think History shows by attacking a population because the acts of a few just creates more enimies out of people who were not involved in the first place. Look at Kosovo...before Milosevich's crack down the KLA numbered about 1000 after it swelled to 20,000-25,000.

chechenfighter how can you call yourself a fighter when you have been sitting behind a computer for the last 1000 hrs? why are you not with your brothers in arms?

Chechen Freedom Fighter...One thing raised a fag to me in your post. It said "Russians officers are being rotated in and out in order for them to gain experience in case of Russia being invaded." I would buy they were doing this to get an extra ribbon on there uniforms or because they had connections to get themselves the hell out of there but to gain experience for a possible invasion. I can buy that because if it is true the Russians are very parranoid. I mean who on earth would invade Russia? Lets say poland invades. Putin lobs a nuke at warsaw...invasion over.

Suleyman,

I am assuming that you were referring to the BBC article I posted..well, the point of me posting the article wasn't to show how many chechens were killed but rather that even independant observers can assume what's obvious to some of us with a sense of reality

Dimitri

Gonzo said:
"I think History shows by attacking a population because the acts of a few just creates more enimies out of people who were not involved in the first place. Look at Kosovo...before Milosevich's crack down the KLA numbered about 1000 after it swelled to 20,000-25,000. "


Gonzo,
that is actually a very good point you brought up..but, as you also mentioned - Russia considers it a part of itself, so few bomings(payback, as you say) just wouldn't do..

Betterthanyou...I don't see the chechens as freedom fighters ether otherwise they wouldn't have raided areas outside of Chechnya. In the end the Russians will have to win this one in some way to claim victory, the army and the polaticians have too much riding on it but it will be very costly to the Russians since they have an army of consripts and history shows that armys made of men who join of there own free will , will out fight draftees anyday.

chechen fighter,

yea, really - if you dare to call yourself a 'fighter' - why dontcha actully fight, instead of "fighting" on the Net?? Something tells me though, that I won't get a clear and honest responce from ya, "fighter"

Gonzo,

you've asked why the chechens would surrender..well, why would anybody surrender, then? That's right - to save their lives..with all the hate that Russians have fot the terrorists, they still would not torture and kill armless people..(only after a court verdict, maybe they will die, if they do surrender)

But, on the other hand you might be right - it might just be a bit too late to beg for forgiveness..they(terrorists) took it way too far..

Dimitri, yes that is a major factor that rips into any argument that Russia has over-reacted. There is an argument for the rights of areas to have self government but there is a good argument for maintaing the area under one and the same governemnt instead of gaining independece. One of the questions posted at the top of this message board is that can chechnya be a country that survives on its own. I think not. If the Chechens truely wanted indepence they are going about it the wrong way. After the cold war areas have gained indepences in a bloodless peacefull way which in Chechnya case by doing it that way (if possible) would be both beneficial to Chechnya and Russia which makes me think these Chechen fighters are not a big group of freedom seeking guys in the sence that its all about patriotism. I think the fighters have more loyalty to the own clans and gangs than to Chechnya itself.

Dimitri, I guess more than anything the Chechens will not surrender is simple loyalty to their own clans. I don't think they have much fear of death or being arrested if they surrendered. Plus these guys don't seem to be affraid of sitting in a city thats being blasted at so the Russians will have to and it seems to me the only way for them to win is just to wipe them all out or capture them. I would not, if I were the Russians hold out any hope the Chechens will surrender.

Gonzo,

do you want to know why I think Russia over-reacted,if you will? Russia still remembers those days when we were soooo powerful and could (and did, infact)invade so many countries and be easily succesful at it..and nobody could do sh1t.now things have changed but the power-trip is still there.

I still belive though that the only 'language' the terrorists could speak is the language of power..Russia might've had a rather extreme idea on how to fix it, but anything less probably wouldn't work..it really REALLY sucks though that the civilians are the ones who have to pay the 'toll'

Dimitri,
I also agree that the Russians will eventually prevail. However, they will pay a price since the rebels don't have much to lose in general. It's not like the economy or the government was in a state of harmony after the de facto independence. These rebels are probably from rural areas and have only read one book (the Quran) There's not much to lose if you are a Chechen. It's not as if many of the rebels lived a life of comfort that the West has enjoyed. Socially speaking, they don't have far to fall even during these times of war.

Gonzo said:"I would not, if I were the Russians hold out any hope the Chechens will surrender."

Yeap, you're probably right on that one..if it wasn't for the civies, I'd say - wipe out tha whole Grozny by any means nesessary..

I was just wondering how much close in airsupport the Russian troops have. In vietnam the US troops who got into a fire fight could call in airsupport and with in seconds planes would be incoming to unload. On a different note this is kind of funny. The USA has been testing a new unmaned spy plane that can fly for up to two days staright. Well the other week they were testing this $25 million spy plane and the F-16 flying behind watched it turn off its engine , drop it flaps and dive staright into the ground. After checking out the crash it was shown the plane went into self destruct mode witch even goes so far as to erase all data on its computers so the info wouldn't fall into someone elses hands. What happened? Well apparently the plane was flying in an area where they were tested another aircraft of the same type on the ground. You guessed it at the time they were testing the self-destroy mode of the plane on the ground and the one flying above intercepted thoes commands and did just that. An American officer said. "well at least in didn't crash into anyones embassey."

By Dimitri ( - 208.198.122.14) on Friday, January 21, 2000 - 05:1


dimitri u ukrainian son of a •••••!