Kissie:
Keep it up, your doing great defending females in general. Now say this fast outloud, "Have you seen Mike Hunt"

Did Alexei stumble across Russian agents planting a bomb to justify Chechen war?

By Helen Womack in Ryazan


27 January 2000

A new metal door with an electronic lock distinguishes apartment house 16/14 from the other high-rise blocks on Novosyolov Street in the city of Ryazan. The security improvement is the residents' compensation for a disturbing incident that happened lastautumn. They are now supposed to shut up and forget about it.

On 23 September, after a wave of apartment block bombings in Moscow and other cities, originally blamed on Chechen terrorists, residents noticed three strangers behaving suspiciously near the house and called the police. Officers found what they believed was a huge bomb in the basement and evacuated the flats. The residents were kept out in the cold all night. Only 24 hours later did the Federal Security Service (FSB) in Moscow say the emergency had been a "training exercise".

At the time, the residents' shock and relief at escaping the fate of those who were buried under the rubble turned into annoyance with the FSB for using them in a bomb drill. Since then, however, they have started to ask questions about the incident. Was somebody really trying to kill them? Could it have been the very service that is supposed to protect the citizens?

Novosyolov (New Settlers' Street) lies at the heart of a Seventies housing estate on the edge of Ryazan, 130 miles south-east of Moscow. The new security arrangements make entering the building impossible unless you know the door code or someone coming out lets you slip inside.

Ring any doorbell and theoccupants will tell you that the best people to speak to are the Kartofelnikov family, because they were the main witnesses to everything that happened. At flat number 19 on the fourth floor, the door is opened by Yulia Kartofelnikova, who says her parents, Alexei and Lyudmila, are out. She invites me anyway into a book-lined living room. Ms Kartofelnikova has just graduated from medical school; she gives a clear account of the strange events of 23 September.

"It was about nine in the evening. Dad had just come back from the garage [he is a bus driver]. He spotted a white car backed up to our building. A piece of paper with the number 62 was pasted over the number plate. He thought it was odd. Most people would not notice such a thing but he is a driver, so such details catch his eye.

"I saw the car as well. I was looking down from the balcony. I saw one man from behind. He looked at his watch and got into the driver's seat."

At ground level, another witness, Vladimir Vasiliev, a radio engineer, also saw two passengers, another man and a woman, and they looked to him like Russians rather than Chechens.

"Dad came up and rang the police," Ms Kartofelnikova said. "The phone was engaged, engaged, but he persisted and got through. I was walking Malish [a dog] when three policemen arrived. I showed them the way to the basement... The police were not keen to go down there. But one young officer did, and he came rushing back up again, shouting 'bomb'."

Bomb-disposal teams were summoned. The police went after the white car, only to find it abandoned in a car park. The building was evacuated. Use of the lift was forbidden, so the residents, including elderly people and pregnant women, filed down the stairs. Several bedridden invalids had to be left behind. The residents stood in the cold until after midnight, when the nearby October Cinema opened its doors to them.

"There was no heating and the water had been cut off," said Ms Kartofelnikova. "Then Dad had an idea. He fetched one of his buses and we spent the night in a warm coach. Early in the morning, on the radio, we heard that four sacks of explosives had been found, with a device set to detonate them at 5.30am. Then it hit home. I felt afraid."

Only in the morning of 24 September were the residents allowed back home. Later that day, as the Russians began the war in Chechnya that has propelled Vladimir Putin into power, the head of the FSB, Nikolai Patrushev, said the scare in Ryazan had been a "training exercise". The sacks contained only sugar. (Subsequently, the FSB was to announce that it had found a "school for terrorists" in the Chechen town of Urus Martan and explosives identical to those used to bomb flats in Moscow, Buinaksk and Volgodonsk.) Mr Kartofelnikov was declared a hero and given a black and white television set as a reward.

But questions started arising in residents' minds. If it was a training exercise, who was being trained? Why, after the residents had practised evacuation procedures, were they not reassured and allowed to go home? If, as Mr Patrushev said, this was a nationwide exercise, why were there not similar drills in other cities?

Mr Kartofelnikov is convinced that Ryazan was next on the list of cities to be bombed, but by whom he does not know. I asked his daughter whether she thought it was conceivable that FSB agents, rather than Chechen terrorists, were behind the bombings. "There is no proof but anything is possible," she said. She added that she did not blame the local police or Ryazan branch of the FSB for what had happened.

Lieutenant-Colonel Sergei Kabashov of the Ryazan police said: "Our preliminary tests showed the presence of explosives. We were not told it was a test. As far as we were concerned, the danger was real."

Another police officer in the city, Major Vladimir Golev, said a local telephone operator had intercepted a call to an FSB number in Moscow in which the caller had sought instructions because the city's railway stations were being watched.

"Split up and make your own way out," said the voice on the other end, according to Major Golev, who said the call could have been part of an exercise to test police alertness.

According to Ms Kartofelnikova, a local FSB officer told her father privately that he had been "born in a shirt", a Russian expression meaning someone is very lucky. Was he admitting the Kartofelnikovs and all the other 250 residents were to have died in their beds?

Whatever the truth, the FSB would now like the residents to forget all about the affair. "At the very least," said Ms Kartofelnikova, "we were inconvenienced... Some of us wanted to take the matter to court. But Alexander Sergeyev, of the local FSB, paid us a visit. He said he understood our feelings but we should think of the situation in the country and be loyal. So we are quiet."

Instead, the residents have their metal door and an intercom system. They collected some money for it themselves and when they still could not afford it, they found that the housing authority had decided to let them have it at a "discount".


A journalist for the United States-funded Radio Liberty has gone missing while reporting from Chechnya, colleagues at the station's Moscow bureau said yesterday. Andrei Babitsky last made contact on 15 January when he said he was in the Chechen capital, Grozny.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Russia/2000-01/chechen270100.shtml [code for Ryazan] was pasted over the number plate. He thought it was odd. Most people would not notice such a thing but he is a driver, so such details catch his eye.

"I saw the car as well. I was looking down from the balcony. I saw one man from behind. He looked at his watch and got into the driver's seat."

At ground level, another witness, Vladimir Vasiliev, a radio engineer, also saw two passengers, another man and a woman, and they looked to him like Russians rather than Chechens.

"Dad came up and rang the police," Ms Kartofelnikova said. "The phone was engaged, engaged, but he persisted and got through. I was walking Malish [a dog] when three policemen arrived. I showed them the way to the basement... The police were not keen to go down there. But one young officer did, and he came rushing back up again, shouting 'bomb'."

Bomb-disposal teams were summoned. The police went after the white car, only to find it abandoned in a car park. The building was evacuated. Use of the lift was forbidden, so the residents, including elderly people and pregnant women, filed down the stairs. Several bedridden invalids had to be left behind. The residents stood in the cold until after midnight, when the nearby October Cinema opened its doors to them.

"There was no heating and the water had been cut off," said Ms Kartofelnikova. "Then Dad had an idea. He fetched one of his buses and we spent the night in a warm coach. Early in the morning, on the radio, we heard that four sacks of explosives had been found, with a device set to detonate them at 5.30am. Then it hit home. I felt afraid."

Only in the morning of 24 September were the residents allowed back home. Later that day, as the Russians began the war in Chechnya that has propelled Vladimir Putin into power, the head of the FSB, Nikolai Patrushev, said the scare in Ryazan had been a "training exercise". The sacks contained only sugar. (Subsequently, the FSB was to announce that it had found a "school for terrorists" in the Chechen town of Urus Martan and explosives identical to those used to bomb flats in Moscow, Buinaksk and Volgodonsk.) Mr Kartofelnikov was declared a hero and given a black and white television set as a reward.

But questions started arising in residents' minds. If it was a training exercise, who was being trained? Why, after the residents had practised evacuation procedures, were they not reassured and allowed to go home? If, as Mr Patrushev said, this was a nationwide exercise, why were there not similar drills in other cities?

Mr Kartofelnikov is convinced that Ryazan was next on the list of cities to be bombed, but by whom he does not know. I asked his daughter whether she thought it was conceivable that FSB agents, rather than Chechen terrorists, were behind the bombings. "There is no proof but anything is possible," she said. She added that she did not blame the local police or Ryazan branch of the FSB for what had happened.

Lieutenant-Colonel Sergei Kabashov of the Ryazan police said: "Our preliminary tests showed the presence of explosives. We were not told it was a test. As far as we were concerned, the danger was real."

Another police officer in the city, Major Vladimir Golev, said a local telephone operator had intercepted a call to an FSB number in Moscow in which the caller had sought instructions because the city's railway stations were being watched.

"Split up and make your own way out," said the voice on the other end, according to Major Golev, who said the call could have been part of an exercise to test police alertness.

According to Ms Kartofelnikova, a local FSB officer told her father privately that he had been "born in a shirt", a Russian expression meaning someone is very lucky. Was he admitting the Kartofelnikovs and all the other 250 residents were to have died in their beds?

Whatever the truth, the FSB would now like the residents to forget all about the affair. "At the very least," said Ms Kartofelnikova, "we were inconvenienced... Some of us wanted to take the matter to court. But Alexander Sergeyev, of the local FSB, paid us a visit. He said he understood our feelings but we should think of the situation in the country and be loyal. So we are quiet."

Instead, the residents have their metal door and an intercom system. They collected some money for it themselves and when they still could not afford it, they found that the housing authority had decided to let them have it at a "discount".


A journalist for the United States-funded Radio Liberty has gone missing while reporting from Chechnya, colleagues at the station's Moscow bureau said yesterday. Andrei Babitsky last made contact on 15 January when he said he was in the Chechen capital, Grozny.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/World/Russia/2000-01/chechen270100.shtml

URN:
harkening back a ways, before mr pierre bum-rushed the joint, to your question...
in the early '80s, the time of embarrassing flix like 'red dawn' and reaganisms like "the bombing starts in 5 minutes" (ewww), i used to try to tell people that russia couldnt take over america when they were barely holding themselves together...and we know what happened after that.
i would sincerely hope that there is no 'grand secret plot' on the part of america to do in russia at this late date; i'd think america is stretched pretty thin as it is...would there continue to be a point in such a plot? i dunno, i'm asking you, and your experiences could point you towards a different answer than my own. ha...not that i have an 'answer' so much as the hope that you would be incorrect.
i generally try to respect people who have their point of view together, regardless of the degree to which i agree. i put you in that category, an exception to a large proportion of this board...

i was a 'commie' in high school, lol, a good long while ago. and i'd say: genuine marxism would be great, genuine democracy would also be great, but we dont have either, because when noble ideas on paper collide with the reality of human frailties/weaknesses/desires/GREED... we, all of us, live in 'what happens after that'...
unfortunately too many here feel "when in doubt, let's drag religion into the mix", making for an even worse mess. "let's have a war/so you can all die" as the punk band sang.

dimitri-chan, if i've morphed from the 'wizard of oz' from whom you wanted to hear more, to 'o bitter one', well, sometimes the hammer has to come down.
witness the dishonorable end of ADDER21 and what he was, or has been, reduced to, following days of wearisome pontification.
i try to pick my spots, and i'm pleased to think i helped take that sucka down. and notice is served to other miscreants. be careful what you start here.

but now i'll try to sit quietly again: the 'bitter, wizardly' ronin...LOLOL, until next time.
ja! dimitri-chan.
=
and the greetings of dawn for you, k-san.
=
yours in ramblage,
L'm

http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/01/28/timfgnrus02003.html?1124027

Alice Lagnado, in hiding in southernChechnya, learnsof the latest bloodybattle for Grozny


Rebels 'kill 700 Russian troops'



RUSSIAN troops were driven back after a struggle for control of the Minutka Square area of Grozny that began early on Wednesday and ended yesterday morning, Chechen rebel sources say.
The rebels report that Russian forces lost up to 700 troops in one of the heaviest battles yet for control of the city.

A Chechen field commander based in southern Chechnya who is in constant touch with the rebels fighting in Grozny told The Times that the battle near Minutka Square, although it did not reach the square, began in the early hours of Wednesday when Russian troops launched an offensive from the direction of Khankala, a village east of Grozny.

Chechen rebels are able to communicate easily among themselves with simple, readily available walkie-talkies.

The Russians in the latest assault on Grozny were defence ministry troops and other special army regiments, the commander said. They came from two directions on either side of the railway tracks leading from Khankala to Grozny. Between 500 and 700 Russian soldiers had been killed in the fighting, he said.

Approximately 30 tanks and armoured personnel carriers (APCs) were destroyed, their burnt shells lining the eastern approach to Minutka Square.

Another 12 tanks and APCs were left intact, abandoned by fleeing Russian troops, the Chechen commander said. Chechen forces had repulsed the Russians largely through the use of rocket-propelled grenades.

According to the American-backed Radio Liberty, up to 50 Chechen rebels were also killed. Chechen commanders, who expect each of their men to kill at least 20 Russians, consider even singlefigure losses to be very serious.

The losses on both sides, even taking into account possible exaggeration, are tremendous and mark the beginning of a new phase in the war. According to the Chechen field commander, rebel forces had retaken the Staraya Sunzha region by the time fighting ended yesterday morning.

Russian forces controlled only the 6th micro-region in northern Grozny, he said. In the northwest, Russian troops still controlled the village of Katayama, in the Staropromyslovsky suburbs, but had not reached far beyond.

In the southeast, Russian troops had reached the tuberculosis hospital in the Oktyabrskoye region in the suburbs of Grozny.

Moscow sent 300 extra troops into Grozny on Thursday, according to news agency reports, and now has more than 120,000 troops in the tiny republic.

Meanwhile, in the Russiancontrolled territory of Chechnya outside Grozny, Moscow's forces are living up to their reputation for rudeness, intimidation and violence. Bella, 46, escaped from Grozny a fortnight ago and now lives in a dark, crowded hostel with 1,700 other refugees in the village of Sernovodsk, west of Grozny.

In Grozny, she said, she saw Russian troops eating dogs and cats because they had trouble maintaining their food supplies. She said that there was a filtration camp where Chechen men were tortured at the 6th Polyclinic in the Staropromyskovsky region in Grozny's northwestern outskirts.

Bella said that Russian planes were bombing Grozny regularly, but she had not seen any troops in the street.

In her street, there were only two homes that had not been abandoned. Both housed elderly Russians. Their only source of water was puddles of melted snow.

Bella reported that soldiers visited the village of Zakan Yurt, near Sernovodsk, on December 13 and killed a doctor and his wife for no apparent reason.

Rashid Dadayev, 50, the head doctor at a psychiatric hospital there, and his wife Tamara, 42, were driving to the hospital when masked troops shot at them from an APC. Both were killed instantly.

In Grozny, she said, she saw Russian troops eating dogs and cats because they had trouble maintaining their food supplies. She said that there was a filtration camp where Chechen men were tortured at the 6th Polyclinic in the Staropromyskovsky region in Grozny's northwestern outskirts.

but wait! a new FAKE KISSIE has appeared...the 8:01 post is a FAKE.

A loss in Chechnya would convey an embarrassing message worldwide – the once mighty Russian army cannot quell an uprising of less then ten thousand guerrilla fighters. Russians still believe their nation is both a regional hegemon and a global superpower. A loss to Islamic guerrillas would crush that image

...and so is the 8:09 post. FAKE.

where??

ditto the 8:15 post. FAKE TAMBIEN.

are we the only 1 here?L

In Grozny she saw Udugow smoking Albanian hashish with dogs and cats because they had trouble maintaining their food supplies. She said that there was a camp where Chechen men were gathering meager personal effects, confiscated from babushkas to, like Napoleonic troops had done in Moscow, in Staropromyskovsky region in Grozny's northwestern outskirts.
A loss in Chechnya would convey an embarrassing message worldwide _ the once mighty fundie bandit army choked on hashish. Russians still believe their nation is both a regional hegemon and a global superpower. A loss of Islamic gorrillas would polish that image.

in grozny she saw putin eating excrement,while ruskies were jerking each other off. meanwhile ras-putin is quoted as saying "all is going as plannned". the russian flag will fly over grozny jan 01 2000. people claim that date has past are liers, it is nothing but propaganda by western media.we will change our beloved super pauper state in to a powerfull state again.

By RK Pierre ( - 204.108.241.90)

*stop posting your nonsense
*dont you know im the smartest
*and the only one who can do these cool things******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Turk let them try it

---

TURKISH MINISTER PROPOSES NEW "TURKISH COMMONWEALTH"
"Ottoman Empire Successor" is Threatening for Armenia

ROME, JAN 23 (ZENIT).- Russia no longer has the strength to oppose a united Turkish Commonwealth, according to the Turkish Minister for relations with Turkish republics of the former Soviet Union. He proposed a Turkish Commonwealth uniting Turkey, "the Ottoman Empire successor," Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Turkmenistan.

Minister Abdulhaluk Cei continued by saying he hoped the Commonwealth would also include Slavic Ukraine and Islamic Iran in the Commonwealth, as well. "We, the Ottoman Empire, ruled these territories for centuries," the minister said on January 19.

According to the Russian independent newspaper "Nezavisimaya Gazeta," higher government officials will likely not openly support Cei's proposal. However, Ismail Jem, Turkish Foreign Minister, indicated on December 31 that Turkey's priorities for foreign policy are the Caucasus and Central Asia. Afterwards, President Demirel said that Turkey should become the leading country of the region, fighting for peace, stability, and economic prosperity of all other countries in their region of the world.

The Russian newspaper also pointed out the first likely victim of such a "Turkish Commonwealth" -- the country of Armenia. Already at the beginning of the 20th century, the Turks carried out a holocaust against the Armenians of proportions unseen until the Nazis. The current country of Armenia and its Christian population would find itself cut off and surrounded by a league of Turkish and Islamic states.
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