Kim
I'm sorry. I had to tell that I don't agree, of course with such view but to my mind it went without saying. When I talked about nazi trend in Germany, it was in the context of this Emperor Clothes which rely on very shallow historical clichés. I wanted to say that under such a logic the argument is not valid for the US and other Euro contries.

That as you said "is just too easy a view of Historical determinism. And if the "emperor's" article is based on that premise then it is questionable. "

They are neo-nazis in the US, in Britain, in France, in Belgium, in SLOVAKia... But I stop you when you say there are none (or less) in Germany.


I'm going to read this article about the mine, and I come back...

salut!

On February 13th, in the city of Mitrovica where 50,000 of the remaining 100,000 Serbs who have not yet been driven out of Kosovo still live, UN personnel were overmatched by sniper fire and crowds throwing rocks and grenades in a march on the city that's known for its prized Trepca mineral mines. Wresting control of the mines and their 17 billion tons of coal reserves, plus lead, zinc, cadmium, silver, and gold treasures from the government in Belgrade has been seen as a goal not just of the Albanian insurgents of Kosovo but also of the international industrial and investment interests who stand poised to reap major benefits from NATO dominion over the area.

The mines have been called "the most valuable piece of real estate in the Balkans." Many of Kosovo's pro-secession Albanians who had worked in the mines were weeded out and replaced with Poles, Czechs, and Serbs by the Milosevic administration in the 1980's after having committed a spate of strikes, sabotage incidents, and violence against fellow-Albanian miners who remained loyal to the government in Belgrade.
http://www.antiwar.com/rep/berne1.html

Igor, I wouldn't be surprised if the russians didn't get there hands on info about the F-117 as far back as the early 80's. or they could have just gone to the USAF museum (free admission, to see a movie at theIMAX though does cost about $5 ) to get a close look. I don't think its a big deal that the Russians, if they did, get a buch of wreckage from a plane that was devloped in the late 70's and early 80's. But then again there is also nothing new about Russia trying to play catch up to US tecnology by spying or getting there hands on more advanced US technology. quick history lesson in the first jet to jet dogfight who won. Answer a US Lockheed F-80 shooting star shot down a Russian built Mig-15 in Nov. 1950.

Igor,
I appreciate your warm greeting. My absence had been only temporary. As you know, by my previous abandonments, I've always returned. Best wishes to you and good night!

Igor

"In short, the international community is going to take over Trepca whoever is in charge in Belgrade; better do it while Milosevic is there, so that the Western-backed "progressive, democratic" opposition can pretend it was the fault of Milosevic! "

Of course it's fault of Milosevic if he cant prevent the takeover...

"Whether the theft was real or merely a "pretext" is of no interest to the international community ... so long as the Serbs were in charge. "

The mine are in Kosovo territory and should belong to the Kosovars, not to the Serbs.

Thanks to you, Igor, I have a better opinion on the Balkan. As you can see I don't agree with everthing on Emperor clothes. But I took more distance with the "western propaganda".

Now, let me tell you a story.

A man is being got his daughter kidnaped and ransomed. He doesn't want to pay the ransom. The kidnapers cut one finger of the girl and send it to him. He still refuses to pay the ransom. The bandits cut the hand of the girl and send it to him. He keeps on refusing. The they cut the head of the girl and send it to him by FedEx. After they kill the bodyguard of the father, who is a whealthy businessman in the mining industry and tell him that he has to pay anyway and if not, he will be killed.
Then, the man change his mind and pay.

Is he a good father?

I don't think, Milosevic was a good father for his nation even in the case I recognized the guilt of Nato in the Kosovo war.

By L'menexe ( - 152.163.204.208) on Sunday, June 4, 2000 - 08:29 am:
antonio,

>you're _really_ losing it, pal.

>like, uh, _everyone_ in the world will be
>stamped '666'.

>dont you realize how WACK this is?


The Apocalyse of St. John, Chapter 13.

Of the beast with seven heads and of a second beast, and the number of the beast - 666.

1 And I saw a beast coming up out the sea, having seven heads and ten horns: and upon his horns, ten diadems: and upon his heads, names of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like to a leopard: and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his own strength and great power.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were slain to death: and his death's wound was healed. And all the earth was in admiration after the beast.
4 And they adored the dragon which gave power to the beast. And they adored the beast, saying: Who is like to the beast? And who shall be able to fight with him?
5 And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies: and power was given to him to do, two and forty months.
6 And he opened his mouth unto blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his tabernacle and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And power was given him over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb which was slain from the beginning of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that shall lead into captivity shall go into captivity: he that shall kill by the sword must be killed by the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth: and he had two horns, like a lamb: and he spoke as a dragon.
12 And he executed all the power of the former beast in his sight. And he caused the earth and them that dwell therein to adore the first beast, whose wound to death was healed.
13 And he did great signs, so that he made also fire to come down from heaven unto the earth, in the sight of men.
14 And he seduced them that dwell on the earth, for the signs which were given him to do in the sight of the beast: saying to them that dwell on the earth that they should make the image of the beast which had the wound by the sword and lived.
15 And it was given him to give life to the image of the beast: and that the image of the beast should speak: and should cause that whosoever will not adore the image of the beast
should be slain.
16 And he shall make all, both little and great, rich and poor, freemen and bondmen, to have a character in their right hand or on their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, but he that hath the character, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and the number of him is six hundred sixty-six.

NO, antonio.

you _didnt_ answer my question.

ancient comic-book rhetoric ain't gonna cut it.
==
condolences to the people in your day-to-day life.

Fred that's what I wanted you to see that, the west misled the people a bit.That site and anti- war.com give better news than the rags we call newspapers in Canada.Once in a while Peter Worthington (Toronto Sun) who I would have swore was totally right-wing actually reported about Kosovo that went totally against the standard line.It seems he was as disgusted with what was going on as were people who were following events prior to the debacle.

Russian security forces detained Bilal Arsanov - brother of the Chechen rebel leader Arbi Barayev. No details of Arsanov's arrest were released by the military. He is currently being held by federal special forces at an unspecified location. Bilal Arsanov is known to have participated in numerous attacks against federal troops.

4 Salautdin Kasumov - one of the field commanders of Maskhadov's "presidential guards" - was captured today by Russian police in the Chechen village of Alleroy. Kasumov was detained at a police checkpoint when he tried to use a fake ID to leave the village. According to the Interior Ministry information service, Kasumov is now cooperating with the federal investigators. The village of Alleroy is where Maskhadov and many of his personal bodyguards were born.

Israel concerned about 9 Jews still believed held by Chechens

By JACK KATZENELL
The Associated Press
6/5/00 5:48 PM


JERUSALEM (AP) -- Relief in Israel over the rescue of a 12-year-old boy maimed by Chechen kidnappers was mingled Monday with worry over nine other Jews abducted by Chechen rebels in the past eight years.

The case of young Adi Sharon has focused attention the missing Jews, all of whom were from Russian republics around Chechnya and have relatives in Israel. Some were seized as early as 1992 and have not been heard from in years.

"It has been such a long time that the chances that they are still alive are very slim," Israeli Deputy Immigration Minister Marina Solodkin, "but we have to keep trying to find out what happened to them."

Adi returned to Israel on Sunday after spending nine months tied up in a cellar. His kidnappers cut off both of his pinky fingers and left him badly malnourished.

Sharon was captured while visiting his father in Russia and held while kidnappers demanded $8 million in ransom. Last week, Russian security forces stormed the hide-out where he was being kept in the town of Penza, about 350 miles southeast of the Russian capital.

The nine missing Jews are only a few of more than 1,000 Russian and foreign civilians who have been seized for ransom by the Chechens since the war with Russia began.

All the victims, Jews and non-Jews, were abducted because the kidnappers thought they had money, but Israeli officials say anti-Jewish feelings may have entered the picture. In a videotape captured by the Russian forces and screened worldwide on Russian television channels, Arbi Barayev, one of the Chechen warlords, said the Chechens hate Israel and the Jews and will continue to kidnap Jews because they have money.

"This is not so much classical anti-Semitism as Islamic fundamentalism," Solodkin said.

In some cases, Jewish victims are seized because the kidnappers suspect they have sold their homes and belongings prior to emigrating to Israel and therefore have large sums in cash.

Roman Ashurov, 71, was abducted as he was on his way home from an Israeli mission office where he had been arranging his departure.

Interior Minister Natan Sharansky on Sunday gave visiting Russian counterpart Vladimir Rushailo the names of eight of the missing Jews.

Solodkin said there is a ninth missing Jew, but his relatives in Israel refused to give Israeli officials his name, saying they intend to pay the ransom and don't want authorities to interfere.

Of the eight on Sharansky's list, one is known to be alive. Three are believed to have been shot dead by their captors, Solodkin said.

In other cases, authorities get to the victims in time. In addition to Adi's dramatic rescue last week, four kidnapped Jews have recently been freed and now live with their families in Israel.

Laura Lichtman, 18, was already living in Israel when she was kidnapped during a visit to Russia. Like Adi, she was rescued by Russian special forces.

Vladimir Fail, 14, was released after top officials from the Caucasian Republic of Ingushetia interceded with the Chechens on his behalf. The terms of Fail's release are secret and reflect the complex relations existing between Chechnya and the other Caucasian republics, Solodkin said.

Another teen-ager, Oleg Imiliantev, is believed to have been released by his captors as Russian troops drew near and was returned to his home in the Israeli city of Ashdod, also having lost two of his fingers.

Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Ephraim Sneh said Sunday that Russia could have freed Adi Sharon months ago, but Solodkin said the Russian government was doing its best to free all kidnap victims.

"I think it is cooperating with us and has even given the Jewish victims priority," she said

Fred, Thank you for your explanation. Maybe I was being overprotective of my old home, but those"shallow historical cliches" as you say, tend to make me see red.

I am by no means claiming that there are no or less neo-nazi's in Germany. We know that there are, and that particularly Asylum seekers have found this out at their cost. But as in the other countries mentioned, these are Fringe groups, which with the exception of Austria,France and Italy have been kept out of mainstream politics.
Even in those countries they have had to "modify" their stance to become elected. And are usually the result of a "protest vote" against the politicians of the Centre ground.

Kim

Igor, I respect the point you are making, but there are more reliable sources of information, more convincing ones, that don't rely on cheap tactics to make a point. If you don't believe me, go check out some of Daniela's sources on the Yugo board.

Kim

Dear Suleyman,

My deepest apologies, I have been meaning to write back, but the longer I left it, the more guilty i felt. (Silly Game, i know.)
I'm really glad to see you back as always.
I hope you'll forgive my rudeness
Kim