Dear L'menexe,

You refer to me as a monster. Yet I am not the one responsible for the genocide and displacement of thousands of innocent Chechens. Over 200,000 refugees. Ever seen a baby freeze to death in winter? Ever seen women and children cut to shreds on barbed wire trying to flee from Russian soldiers. On the other hand what about the thousands of young Russian conscripts forced to fight in Chechnya, to better Putins politcal aims?
How do you think their mothers feel?

You berate me for profiting from all this misery. But if you ever have the time to check things out. Most of the large currency hedge funds shorting the ruble (betting against Russia) are managed by your Jewish friends. Check it out on www.bloomberg.com and various other financial sites.

We all have a right to free speech, however repugnant you may feel the other person's views are.

"I may disagree with what you say,
but i will defend to the death,
your right to say it."

Voltaire

Regarding the spelling of capice, I stand corrected.

St. Therese of Lisieux says: "How happy I would have been to fight at the of the Crusades or, later on, against the heretics! I want to be a warrior, a martyr! Oh! Is it possible I must die in bed?"



Yeah! Antonio,

He sure got his sorry ass whopped by the Moslems!
At least he got his wish about not dying in bed!

I love reading about the Crusades, how you sorry catholics got a good beating! I love reading about the lesson Henry VIII taught you pagan pope worshippers!

Cooking the books -
NATO's ethnic cleansing claims challenged
by
Michel Chossudovsky (Revised 2-10-00)

Emperors Clothes - www.tenc.net

NATO's justification for bombing Yugoslavia on humanitarian grounds has been refuted by the Western alliance's own official figures and documentary evidence. The recently released OSCE report entitled "As Seen, As Told: Analysis of the Human Rights Findings of the OSCE Kosovo Verification Mission" suggests that the allegation of mass deportations is a fabrication. 1

Although heavily slanted in its main conclusions, the OSCE figures suggest that there were proportionately more Serbs (as a percentage of population) fleeing Kosovo than ethnic Albanians which puts an obvious question mark on NATO's assertion that organized mass expulsions of ethnic Albanians were taking place.

According to OSCE numbers and Kosovar Albanian sources on population size and distribution, an estimated 45.7 percent of the Albanian population and 59.5 percent of the Serb population had fled Kosovo during the bombings (i.e. from 23 March to 9 June 1999).2

The OSCE report summarises the balance-sheet of ethnic Albanian refugees as numbering 862,979. In a secluded footnote at the bottom of the main table, the report nonetheless acknowledges that: "In addition [to the 862,979 ethnic Albanian refugees], more than 100,000 Serb IDPs [Internally displaced persons] are estimated to have left Kosovo and to have been registered in Serbia and Montenegro". 3 Whereas ethnic Albanians (including those who fled to Montenegro) are categorized as "refugees", Serbs who fled Kosovo during the same period are casually identified as "Internally Displaced Persons". The figures for ethnic Albanians are very precise in contrast to those indicated for the Serbs in the footnote. The number of refugees belonging to other ethnic groups who fled the province during the bombings is not even acknowledged.

According to Kosovo Albanian sources, the Province had a total population of 2.1 million of which 90 percent are ethnic Albanians, 8 percent Serbs and 2 percent are other ethnic groups.4 Based on these figures (which are accepted both by NATO and the post-conflict KLA provisional government) there were an estimated 1.89 million ethnic Albanians and 168,000 Serbs in Kosovo.

In accordance with the above population breakdown, the exodus of Serbs (as a percentage of population) was larger than that of the ethnic Albanian population. According to OSCE numbers (from UNHCR sources), it is estimated that 45.7 percent of the Albanian population and more than 59.5 percent of the Serb population fled Kosovo during the bombings (i.e. from 23 March to 9 June 1999).

In other words, Serbs --who ostensibly were not the target of "ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the Serbs"-- had also fled the theatre of the war in Kosovo. If there had been a deliberate and cohesive policy of ethnic cleansing and massacres directed against ethnic Albanians, the percentages would have been markedly different and this is something which NATO was cautious not to reveal to public opinion while the bombings were ongoing.

The above estimates depend on the veracity of the OSCE-UNHCR refugee figures as well as on the reliability of the data on population size and distribution. In estimating these percentages, we have accepted official OSCE-UNHCR refugee numbers at face value, namely that the OSCE Report has not artificially "inflated" the number of ethnic Albanian refugees nor has it "deflated" the number of Serbs who fled Kosovo during the bombings with a view to vindicating NATO's claim of ethnic cleansing. We have also taken Kosovar Albanian assumptions pertaining to population size and distribution. In other words, the percentages are derived from their numbers! Moreover, it should be emphasised that the percentage of Serbs who left Kosovo estimated at 59.5 percent is based on the 100,000 figure given by the OSCE. Yet the OSCE report states that the number of Serbs who fled Kosovo during the same period is "more than 100,000".

Accounting for biases in the OSCE-UNHCR figures and margins of error in the data on population, the estimates do not support NATO's allegation of a policy of mass deportation directed against ethnic Albanians.

Ironically, the OSCE Report rather than using Kosovar Albanian sources on population, acknowledges the assumptions of Belgrade's 1991 Census data (also in a discrete footnote) which indicates the ethnic Albanian population at 82 percent of total population. Yet the Census was boycotted by ethnic Albanians and the figures were never recognised by the parallel provisional government of Kosovo. Why does the OSCE acknowledge Belgrade's 1991 Census when NATO and KLA statements repeatedly indicate that the ethnic Albanian population is at 90 percent? Evidently, the use of the 1991 Census data by those who have rejected it, is in this case to their political advantage. Based on the 1991 Census figures, the estimated percentage of each population group which fled Kosovo would be 53.7 percent for the ethnic Albanians and more than 51.5 percent for the Serbs.5 Yet even in this case, NATO's claim of mass deportations is not borne out.

The refugee crisis, we were told repeatedly during the War was limited to ethnic Albanians. According to the Western media, Serb civilians had been protected by the Serb police and Armed forces. The large scale exodus of Serbs from Kosovo prior to June 9, 1999 (acknowledged by the figures contained in the OSCE Report) was simply not mentioned. To reveal the numbers would have discredited NATO's main justification for launching its "humanitarian war".

FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH

Other documentary evidence including an official report of the German foreign ministry published prior to the War, confirms that there was no evidence of "ethnic cleansing" in Kosovo in the months immediately preceding the bombings. Who is lying? German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer had justified NATO's intervention pointing to a "humanitarian catastrophe", yet the internal documents of his own ministry stated exactly the opposite: "Even in Kosovo an explicit political persecution linked to Albanian ethnicity is not verifiable. The East of Kosovo is still not involved in armed conflict. Public life in cities like Pristina, Urosevac, Gnjilan, etc. has, in the entire conflict period, continued on a relatively normal basis. The actions of the security forces [were] not directed against the Kosovo-Albanians as an ethnically defined group, but against the military opponent [KLA] and its actual or alleged supporters."...6

Moreover, a report of the United States Committee on Refugees (USCR) confirms a significant reduction in the number of refugees and internally displaced persons in the period following the signing of the October 13, 1998 agreement between U.S. Special Envoy Richard Holbrooke and Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) President Slobodan Milosevic. According to USCR, the overall refugee situation had improved with the entry of the OSCE Kosovo Verification Mission (KVM). The USCR report also confirms that "KLA ethnic cleansing of ethnic Serb civilian population pockets intensified in December [1998]" substantiating the results of the German Foreign Office intelligence report. But we were told time and again that the Serbs rather than the KLA had been responsible for ethnic cleansing in the months leading up to the War... 7

The OSCE-UNHCR figures on the number of refugees rather than supporting NATO's main justification for waging the war, suggest that more than half the Serb population had also fled Kosovo during the war. This tendency could be explained by the fact that the KLA had been responsible for relaying intelligence to NATO pertaining to potential targets in the bombing operation. Moreover, a history of the war also suggests that the massacres and atrocities directed against the Serbs by the KLA Military Command (amply documented for the period after June 9) had already commenced prior to the arrival of KFOR forces in Kosovo.

NATO'S TWO "HUMANITARIAN PREMISES" INVALIDATED

NATO's pretext for bombing Yugoslavia on humanitarian grounds rests on two central premises: 1) the alleged indiscriminate mass killings of Albanian civilians (premise number one); 2) the implementation of a deliberate policy of mass deportations or "ethnic cleansing" (premise number two). Both these premises have now been refuted by NATO's own evidence and documentary evidence

The alleged indiscriminate mass killings of Albanian civilians had earlier been invalidated by the FBI and European forensic teams working under the auspices of the Hague Tribunal (ICTY) casting doubt on NATO's justification for waging the war. The forensic and police investigators had uncovered several hundred bodies in grave sites in Kosovo as opposed to the 10,000 to 100,000 civilian massacres claimed by NATO and Western governments as a pretext for waging the War. British Prime Minister Tony Blair had announced that President Milosevic was "set on a Hitler style genocide equivalent to the extermination of the Jews during World war II".8 " "Genocide is starting," stated German Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping.10...

The Hague Tribunal (ICTY) (while upholding the war crimes indictment against members of the Yugoslav government), has acknowledged the exhumation"the allegations of indiscriminate mass murder, rape camps,...crematoriums, mutilation of the dead have not been borne out" by the police investigations and forensic evidence. 12

NO REMAINING LEG TO STAND ON Since the release of the forensic reports --which have invalidated premise number one--, the policy of mass deportations against ethnic Albanians (premise number two) is now being upheld by NATO and the Western media as "a sufficient justification" for launching the war. In the words of Madeleine Albright "opposing ethnic cleansing is central to our values... We are reaffirming NATO's core purpose as a defender of democracy, stability and human decency on European soil."13 Yet NATO's claim of mass deportations has now also been refuted by the figures contained in the OSCE report. NATO has no remaining leg to stand on. Official documentary evidence (including the forensic reports and the data on the number of refugees) unequivocally refute NATO's two central postulates for waging the war. What then was the justification for the humanitarian bombings? What was the hidden agenda? Ultimately the truth must prevail, public opinion must be informed and those who are responsible for waging this criminal war must be brought to trial.

>>>By Dimitri ( - 207.87.162.14) on Friday, March 10, 2000 - 03:42 pm:
Have you ever leaned anything about politics, John?
Reason being for asking - you sound naive..unless your goal here is propaganda. >>>

We know that you are not naive. You are one hell of manipulative DOG. Your only interest is to see Russians destroy Chechen freedom fighters, and that is because they are Muslim. Actually you don't neither care nor like Russians. Any Russian who thinks otherwise is a moron, and a lot of them are morons anyway.

You and your kind Kissie are afraid that the fighting prowess of Chechens is a dangerous precedent for Israel, particularly now that Hezbullah is giving her a bloody nose every so often.

Is it a coincidence that out of "so called" civilised world, Israel is the only country openly supporting and encouraging Russia in this violance against Chechen Nation.

War crimes - or faked 'news'?

By Igor Shrurenko (posted 3-10-00)

www.tenc.net [emperors clothes]

DURHAM -- No news is good news. Lately, this formula seems to be a tacit rule-of-the-thumb on presenting Russia in major publications and on TV news networks. According to the mainstream media, the only things now coming from Russia are new atrocities the Russians are practicing just for the sport of it.

The most recent example came last week, when major world TV networks provided us with a vivid picture of mutilated bodies being dumped into a pit. Commentaries said the pit contained the bodies of Chechen civilians detained for interrogation by Russian troops. It was said also that the bodies showed the signs of torture.

The report came from German N-24 Television; correspondent Frank Hoefler said he had witnessed and documented war crimes. The BBC broadcast the film, provoking indignation all over the globe.

But it seemed that no one in the U.S. media questioned the authenticity of what was shown. The Russians have been bad guys for decades, after all. For the Western media, reinforcing negative stereotypes about Russia is one of the easiest things to do.

Human rights activists demanded a full-scale investigation. The U.S. Department of State expressed concern. European Parliament members called to add new sanctions against Russia to those now in place.

But the balloon has blown up unexpectedly. Hoefler, the Moscow correspondent of N-24, admitted that the film was in fact bought from a Russian journalist, Oleg Blotsky. Blotsky said that the film actually showed a mass burial of Chechen rebels killed in fighting with Russian troops. Blotsky was going to sue N-24, he said.

Then N-24 sacked Hoefler. According to Deutsche Presse-Agentur news service, the director of N-24 said that Hoefler distorted the footage and passed it off as his own documentation of war crimes.

What came in the West's mainstream media the morning after? Apologies? No. Calls for more objective coverage of Russia? Missed again.

Mud sticks, and the faked media event shown on major networks has had a real effect. The European Union imposed new sanctions on Russia, putting another trade barrier on Russian steel exports to the EU. As a result of this pseudo-event, the negative stereotype of Russia had been sustained, allowing more negative coverage in the future.

When it comes to international coverage, the U.S. media seem not to recognize the basic journalistic standards accepted for coverage of domestic affairs. At home, no racial, national, gender or minority bias is allowed. Accusations need to be substantiated and well-sourced. Any consciously false reporting, when spotted, will cause a scandal within the journalistic community.

Abroad, anything goes. The time of such sober and distinguished foreign correspondents as David Remnick (formerly The Washington Post's Moscow correspondent) is past. Now correspondents are being posted for much shorter periods of time; they have neither time nor, sometimes, the desire to go deep into an alien culture and try to understand it. All they want is to scoop and move on.

Since U.S. TV networks' international coverage is largely limited to reporting calamities and major bloodshed, the easiest way to scoop is to discover an even bigger calamity, even more bloodshed.

And as covering Russia means applying much lower or non-existent journalistic standards, reporters feel free to rely on plain rumors and bought stories, and on information carefully planted by intelligence services and special-interest groups.

The N-24 faked story made major news. At the same time the networks did not report on the story of Alla Geifman, a 13-year-old Jewish Russian girl who was captured by the Chechen rebels and had two fingers cut off. She was released in a special operation and later was invited to the United States for medical treatment. The U.S. Embassy in Moscow has denied her a visa to enter the U.S.

According to "Kommersant," one of the most respected Russian dailies, her father said she was denied a visa because U.S. officials were afraid the girl, while in the United States, would tell the truth about what is really going on in Chechnya. With the only-negative-goes approach to Russia, this human story is unlikely to get any coverage.

Likewise, the story of an ITAR-TASS photographer Vladimir Yazina, taken prisoner and later killed in cold blood by the rebels, has not made it in the major U.S. news.

The Chechens are not exactly the good guys the Western media like to present them as. And reinforcing negative stereotypes about Russia is easy. To find and publish the truth, even if it goes against the grain, has always been difficult.

>>>Mr Putin ruled out
recognising any form of Chechen
independence, saying it needed leaders who
wanted to stay within Russia.

"We should create a local elite which would
understand it is an advantage for Chechnya to
be part of Russia," he said. >>>

They can release a few more criminals from jails, and give them money, titles, etc. so that they can see it is to their advantage to be Russian puppets.

No real rivals exist for Hezbollah within southern Lebanon. Its armed faction consists of 300 seasoned guerillas, with another 2,000 on standby, according to Jane’s Information Group. It is armed with anti-tank and surface-to-air missiles, mortars, towed guns and recoilless rifles. The SLA, which currently numbers some 3,000 troops, will be too dispersed to be an effective force. Many of the SLA officers will reportedly be given asylum in Israel, Cyprus or France and enlisted men are reportedly converting to Islam and defecting.

Sitting Ducks
Deadly Chechen snipers are spreading fear among Russian troops.

By Erik Batuev in Gudermes, Chechnya (CRS No. 21, 3-Mar-00)

"Sometimes I find myself staring down my night-sights straight at a Chechen sniper who's staring down his night-sights at me," mutters Sanka without moving his lips.

We're standing together in an observation tower, looking out over the Chechen town of Gudermes. It is night and the compound is shrouded in mist. An hour ago, the curfew snuffed out the lights in the surrounding houses. The silence is eerie.

"And then?" My whisper is impossibly loud. "Then we just look at each other in silence. After a while, he nods at me and we go our separate ways."

Sanka is the scout for a detachment of railway troops, billeted in the camp behind us. Gudermes was among the first Chechen towns to surrender to the federal army and has been rewarded for its loyalty with gas, electricity and irregular supplies.

But the atmosphere here is charged with tension. There is a sense of lurking menace, a sinister force that sleeps during the day and prowls by night.

The railway troops are feeling the strain. Sanka may put on a show of diffidence but the knowledge that the Chechen snipers are toying with him has taken a heavy toll on his nerves. He feels he is living on borrowed time. The Chechens pull the strings.

A whistle pierces the night and Sanka stiffens. "Sniper!" he says. "That's how they signal to each other. They shoot at our base almost every night. First we hear one whistle, then another. Sometimes they even howl like wolves."

Whatever they might say in Moscow, the term "occupied territory" has little meaning here. The Chechen fighters materialise from nowhere, from the mountains, from the direction of Grozny, from amongst the civilian population.

ohaya, kisako!
the greetings of the post-dawn, pre-rainy day for you!
==
okay, bacon, let's take it from the top.
again.

http://www.davidicke.com/icke/index.html

http://www.davidicke.com/icke/visitor.html

mr. bacon:
this wont be the first time i've attempted to communicate with you, straight up.
it hasnt worked prior to this, but i'll give you "credit" for your more "articulate" response.
{more "credit" than you've _ever_ given kisako}
=
have i ever seen a baby freeze to death in the winter, you ask? no. nor have you.
how do i think the mothers of dead russian teenage conscripts feel? do you _really_ need to ask such a question?
and i suspect that the mothers of the sorely deluded "holy warriors" feel much the same when their sons meet their end.

there's multiple issues here, mr. bacon; more than either of us have the time or inclination to discuss right now, if at all.
===
you're unapologetic in your hopes to profit from the misery of this war.

you hide behind voltaire; peeking out long enough to launch your attacks on kisako, me, ms. mary, igor, etc.
(antonio's on his own here; he's a sadder case than you)

"freedom of speech" is not intended to be the last refuge of the scoundrel, mr. bacon. FREEDOM is not LICENSE.
==
leave kisako (kissie) alone, bacon. every time you attack her, i'll jump right in. _every_ time.
she certainly hasnt ever asked me to do so. she is far from a "helpless female"...and her jewishness is irrelevant to the fact that she's very smart, and has her own mind about these matters (as well she might, if you knew what i knew), and while she may have at first, she aint gonna take no sh*t from you. NOR SHOULD SHE.
and THIS is the part that upsets you, not her being jewish.

so what do you do? you shower her with anti-semitic rhetoric, treat her like she's the grande dame of the "zionist conspiracy", when she's _just_ _one_ _woman_. that's all. and as such, no less entitled to hide behind voltaire, if she chose.
==
i'd been protestant as a kid. southern baptist, to be specific. that's long gone, thank you very much.
==
go ahead and believe what you want, mr. bacon. NO ONE has tried to prevent you. but in "believing what you want", LEAVE KISAKO ALONE.
==
and, perhaps, consider your choice of "friends" here; you can be more lucid than they'll ever be, as abhorrent to me as your beliefs are...
==
i cant speak for anyone here; kisako would bonk me on the head would i appear to be "speaking for" her. i dont _own_ her; i might _revel_ in her, _celebrate_ her, for reasons i've stated more than once to you, but she "belongs" to no one here...perhaps anywhere...
==
so believe in your "grand schemes"...hate the pope...
read through your tattered "protocols" pamphlet again if you feel you must, but it was one of the greatest scams of the 20th century. no sh*t.
==
but even as you seethe, contemporary money-making mr. bacon, have you ever asked yourself why you cling to ancient precepts as you do? (and the dumbass "protocols" pamphlet doesnt count. it was written at the end of the 19th century, and it was a SCAM).

is your personal faith meant to comfort you? then consider not using it as a platform from which you launch your attacks.
===
that'll be it for me, for today. once again i made the effort to _communicate_ with you, mr bacon.
i'll know soon enough if it was yet another wasted effort...
it's your call, bacon. you've got plenty of room here to believe whatever you want.

and what it comes down to for me is three words:
LEAVE KISAKO ALONE.
or we'll be doing this again.
and arent you sick of it?
i know i am
and i know she is.
-whew-
==
and now, back to discussion of the nightmare in chechnya....where REAL PEOPLE DIE, and REAL MOTHERS GRIEVE.

Blair Defends Russia Trip, Says Dialogue Vital

EDINBURGH, Mar 11, 2000 -- (Reuters) British Prime Minister Tony Blair defended his trip to Russia on Friday to meet Acting President Vladimir Putin, saying it was vital to maintain dialogue with Moscow despite Western concerns over Chechnya.

"The way to conduct ethical foreign policy in these circumstances is to complain about abuses that occur and make sure action is taken," he told BBC television in an interview before the visit.

"But it is still right that Britain has a strong relationship with Russia."

Moscow's campaign against rebels in separatist Chechnya has been widely criticized in the West for excessive force and alleged brutality against civilians.

But Blair, whose government's much-vaunted ethical foreign policy has come under scrutiny over the sale of Hawk jets to Indonesia and other controversial deals, insisted it was not too early to meet the man presiding over the fighting.

"We have always made clear our concerns over Chechnya and any question of human rights abuses there, though it is important to realize that Chechnya isn't Kosovo," he said.

"The Russians have been subjected to really severe terrorist attacks." http://www.russiatoday.com/news.php3?id=141965

Lmenexe ;

Thanks for the laugh.

On Kisako you say ": every time you attack her, i'll jump right in. _every_ time."

LOL - Protect her with what?

Maybe with your glaring mental ineptness, or could it be with your Less than stellar command of the English language, or maybe with your sub-par IQ? (Definitely not with your 5'4" 150 pound body -- LOL.)

Everyone talks trash on these boards L' sore knees, but everyone also has his political views except for you. You simply linger on these boards without ever expressing you views on Chechnia - which is why the board is for - or on other Political/Economic topics. And why is that? Its because you are weak and afraid to post your views. You do not posses the mental endurance to create, analyze and defend them. So you therefore justify your feeble existence on these boards by pretending to "protect" certain posters but shudder at the prospects of actually doing so.

So I ask again…. Protect her with what?

If one is not able to defend HIS/HER views then they should not be here - - especially when "protectors" like you are laying in waiting.LOl.

ah, so the HOMOPSYCHOFAKE chimes in.

and here, mr bacon, is exactly the sort of CRETIN you would do well to avoid.

i said nothing about 'protecting' kisako, pendejo.
go back and read...nah, never mind, comprehension would be too much to ask of you.

it's funny how i keep gaining weight from you, every time you mention it: from the actual 134, then 140, now 150....

i've had a variety of things to say about the chechen conflict. i've been here since nov.

sorry if i bore you; i'd better start tossing in old andrew dice clay routines, huh?

fick dich, HOMOPSYCHOFAKE.