Bacon: at once I agree with you. No matter that is said or done, time will show who is right or not, what was wrong thing to do


just my 2c
thanks

Alla! don't mean AllaH... I respect Allah..

Drake,

I guess despite the appearance of debating, what's going on here really is point scoring. From time to time when we see the posts of new comers expressing amazement on the level of debate is a proof of what I said.

Whats the point of debating if you even don't agree on the rules of debating.

One gentleman is applausing "Take no prisioner" statement, other is expressing delight in killing of alleged sniper woman by tearing her body in two pieces, and yet another is expressing his/her feelings in a most disgusting language.

There is a vicious war out there, but some people here on this board are more vicious than those hardened Russian soldiers. Hatred breeds hatred. It is difficult not to get caught in it.

The only regret I have is causing alienation of any reasonable person out there, by responding to the the feeling of hate expressed on this board.

Reports of indiscriminate bombing, looting, summary arrests, and executions of civilians have not only brought protests from international rights groups; they have made rebel sympathizers out of people who did not support the separatists at first.


''The overall approach among the military is this: If we are to win, we have to destroy the Chechens down to the last man,'' Moscow-based defense analyst Pavel Felgenhauer commented this week. ''Naturally, hatred is met with hatred. Chechnya is becoming a scorched-earth zone, a killing ground. And guerrilla raids are being switched to areas which the Russians took virtually without a fight and where most of the people were at least noncommittal.''


Unlike the last war, when Russian officials kept in contact with rebel commanders in talks brokered by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, this time Moscow has rejected talks with separatist leaders. Analysts said this makes an endgame impossible. Many Chechens are starting to accept the notion that if they do not fight, they will be annihilated.

Turk I do not recall you debating anything here,in fact you were quite happy at Russian losses right from the beggining.You just pretended to be a humanist.You showed your colours right from the get go.How do you back up this Arab shite that is involved in a war out of their own country is beyond me.Believe me all this Islamic fundamentalist shite is going to get it's arse kicked all over the world starting with Chechnya.Next will be KOSOVO.Just sit back and watch and remember that I told you so.And if you are going to debate I suggest you post some facts or something instead of kavkaz.org shite because we all know it is bull.

As for you Canadian Salo you were neglected as a child that is why you seek approval of these other losers because you do not have any friends.Now fight back that lump in your throat and it is okay to cry,get some of that grief out.Your memories of abuse by all your step fathers must have been really tragic.Too bad your prostitute mother could not settle with one man but that is all that she knew coming from a broken home herself.Quit drinking because that shite makes you depressed and take the Prozac as prescribed .Also I would like to say that the garage at my new home is bigger than your whole residence.Welfare my arse you MORON.

NOTE: MUSLIM F@CKS DON’T READ IT...BECAUSE I KNOW YOU WILL START WITH YOUR BULLSHIT ABOUT ALLAH AND ALL OTHER ••••.

MYTH #1. WHAT FREE WESTERN TV, PRESS AND OTHER MEDIAS TELL ME ABOUT CHECHNYA IS TRUE.

I think a free media does not exist. Any press exists because it makes money on one or another way. Because of it, media must (and it indeed does) publish materials demanded by a free market, that is readers society. Although Russia removed iron curtain and Cold War was declared finished, unlike of Russians, western society did not change mind set and still sees Russia as a kind of "evil empire" and therefore generally welcomes any negative and rejects any positive information about Russia. Free press is just facilitating information demands of the society. Don't beleive it? Try to recall last time your heard good news about Russia. Difficult, isn't it?

Recent case of a Mr.Hoffman mocked tape is a proof of this concept. Mr.Hoffman came up with his mocked tape and comments BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT DEMANDED BY GERMAN PUBLIC OPINION. Prejudice is the name of it. The task was charged by his TV channel chief editor and he performed the task to the best of his abilities. The whole story about falsification happened only because HIS ABILITIES APPEARED TO BE MISERABLE. If he only be more thorough and careful, he would have come to Chechnya, found right people to talk to, right place to make his video and, off you go, here are the facts about violation of human rights and atrocities of Russian soldiers. I'm sure Mr.Hoffman is just one out of one hundred. Mr.Hoffman failed, other 99 succeeded.

Here is another proof of PREJUDICE. Today Mr.Blaire arrived to Russia. He did not yet start talking to Mr.Putin, but Human Rights Watch organisation already came with the statement that if Mr.Blaire does not attack Putin he will loose his face. Public opinion is created, so Mr. Blair is demanded to take pupulist actions!

I find quite funny the behaviour of several envoys from UN an EC, which already became a pattern by this time:

Phase 1: Envoy demands to be allowed to enter Chechnya and to see everything by their own eyes and to show the entire world real situation (read - Russian genocide against Chechens). He gives a lot of interviews expressing concerns all around.

Phase 2: Envoy really gets in to Chechnya and start to talk and see for himselves. In just a few hours he recognises that things are not at all what he expected. During this phase he starts to say something like "situation is very difficult..." or "we need to make joint efforts...", and so on.

Phase 3: In a few days they understand that so called "Chechen Republic" was nothing more that just a nest of Muslim fundamentalism, supported by criminals. They recognise that Chechen Republic did give a damn about its citisens. Russians and other non-Chechen nationalities were treated like slaves, frequently and easily killed not yet talking of robbing. Finally when internal resourses were totally destroyed, criminals decided to expand onto Dagestan, where from the whole war has started. During this phase an envoy normally just keeps silent.

Phase 4: In a week time envoy comes back to UN/EC with some real vision of the situation, but finds it very hard to explain - just does not know how to say it in order to be accepted. This looks quite miserable. He/she really tries to relate the truth, softens it as much as possible, but normally without visible success. The information he brings IS NOT WHAT WAS EXPECTED. What is the result? Yet another envoy is being sent to Chechnia.

If you look how informational situation develops around these envoys, you will see that ~50% of the reports are produced during phase 1, 30% - during phase 2, nothing - during phase 3 and the rest after coming back - during phase 4.

Living in Russia I can just feel how opinion of ordinary people changes about Western democracies. If the situation continues, Russians may reverse their thinking about the West and we will have huge problems in Europe. Guess who wins in this case.

MYTH #2. RUSSIA INVADED CHECHNYA.

This phrase is so frequently used that by this time it already became a stamp. Improper words can play a bad joke on us. Generally speaking, the phrase "Country X invaded Country Y" is referred to the situation when one country occupied another, for example: Germany occupied France during W.W.II.

Unlike of France, Chechnya is not a country, but province of Russia. A reader, who is not keen in geography will be misled and tread the case as a bare aggression of one state against another, which is NOT TRUE IN CASE OF CHECHNYA. You may say that's a small detail. However just think: such "small" detail is capable to turn people thinking upside down!

Perhaps, I would not pay special attention to it, but recently I spoke to a German lady. She was absolutely sure that Kosovo was not a part of Yugoslavia. She was totally under impression that Yugoslavia attacked Kosovo.

So let me state is once and forever: since mid of 19th century CHECHNYA WAS AND STILL IS PART OF RUSSIA and not an independant state! Russia can not occupy Chechnya similar to as France can not occupy Burgundia and UK can not occupy Welsh!

MYTH #3. RUSSIAN ARMY ATTACKED CHECHENS AND DESTROYED CHECHNYA.

This is another sample of anti-Russian propaganda. For those who is not aware of the events sequence, here they are.

In 1992-1993 after several badly managed reforms Russia became very weak. In many cases Moscow could not control situation in Regions and in order to glue Russia together Yeltsyn offered to Regional leaders "as much power and responsibility as they can take". Chechen Leader Dudaev - former general of Russian Army decided to split from Russia and took direction onto separatism. The tools he used were national hatred and religious extremism. Educated, intelligent people who did not support this way of thinking became victims of aggressive supporters of Dudaev. Hundreds of thousands of people (most of Russians and Jews and more than 40% of Chechens), fled from Chechnya _before_ 1996. They were lucky to sell their apartments for $1,500 - $2,000. Sometimes they were just forced to leave it for nothing: "why would we pay for it, you will get out of here very soon anyway and then we get it for free".

One of the refugees is my former neighbour. He is not one of 80,000 refugees you are likely to know about from western medias, he is one of 300,000 refugees left Chechnya a way before - most likely you was decided not to know about them.

Dudaev was not a good economist; nether he could do anything about economy. Commanders supporting Dudaev separated Chechnya into several "zones of control" and were only interested in power and immediate money. Oil pipe from Caspian see to Black see had on average one illegal tap per each three meters. Because of it Transneft' has stopped to pump oil. Copper and aluminium used in electrical lines and stations have become one a few remaining valuable assets. Because of it electric lines/stations were disassembled and sold. Chechnya left almost without electricity, central water supplies sewage systems and so on. Infrastructure of Chechnya was destroyed _before_ 1996. By 1996 there were no working schools and hospitals, there was no jobs, except to serve for one of the "commanders", pensions were not paid.

The only remaining peaceful business in Chechnya was [and still is] to pump out secondary oil and make home-made petrol. By saying secondary I mean it is not real natural oil, it is oil, which was spilled in huge quantities from destroyed pipelines and storages. It accumulated at 10 - 20 meters under the ground. People just dig normal wells, like for water and take it out in a bucket. Then they put it in a sort of metal cube, where it is cooked into a petrol on a open fire (can you imagine!!?) This awful petrol was sold in southern Russia.

Another sort of profitable business became kidnapping. Hostages were taken withing and outside Russia disregarding their faith or nationality. The only criteria existed - potential amount of ransom, which typically varied between $100,000 and $5,000,000. Ransoms were indeed paid. Needless to say it only provoked new kidnappings and flourishing of this sort of business.

You may not know that Russia was sending about 800 million rubles every month to Chechnya to keep it within. Honestly I think it was big mistake. Nothing has reached ordinary people. All money were stolen anyway.

Tge situation became quuite clear by 1996. Yeltsyn, looking for another term of presidency decided that it was the right time to fix the problem by force. He was promised by leading at the time Defence Minister that the problem can be solved by one devision of paratroopers in a week time. What a noncense was it we all know by today. At the end Russia had to withdrew its Army and agree to postpone question about status of Chechnya untill 2000.

At the end it is not Russia attacked Chechnya. In 1999 it were Chechen commanders, specifically Basaev and Khattab (this one is a citizen of Jordan) has attached Dagestan, neighbouring republic. They occupied several villiages in high Dagestany moutains, where to their surprise they met with the "lack of understanding". Dagestan people called for Moscow support, which has been provided and bandits were thrown back to Chechnya. After this, Dagestan people became one of the best supporters of Russia in Caucasus.

MYTH #4. CHECHEN FIGHTERS ARE REBELS FIGHTING TO RESTORE FREEDOM OF CHECHNYA.

Sure this way of thinking is very appealing and comfortable for anti-Rusian mind set. It depicts Russia as a sort of "evil empire" and Chechen terrorists as "freedom fighters". Short excursion to the history of Chechnya gives a better understanding of the situation. In 19th century Chechnya was not not a state, but a _territory_ in mointains, populated by Chechen tribes (teips). There was no government or single monarch, there was no national currency, no natinal alfabet. Each tame was lead by its Chief, so called Imam. Similar to American Indians, the tapes were living mainly from their cattle (sheep) fighting and robbing each other as well as other nations around: kozaks on the north, Georgians and Armenians on the south. The latter business was considered very brave and cultivated between young Chechens.

After being conquered in 19 century by Russian troops within a course of Russian - Turkish wars, Chechnya has become one of Russian provinces. The Russian Policy was and proved successful to settle Chechens down on Terek plains and make them to work on land. This has resulted in most of Chechens followed a pieceful way of life. Only small minority was still living in Mountains and fighting guerilla war, lead by Imam Shamil'. Although fighted bravely, in the end Shamil' was captured and sent with his family to Central Russia, Ryazan' city, where he lived for the rest of his life, busy with reading Coran and various books. He applied to all Chechens to stop fighting and to live within Russia in peace. It was in 1859. As of that moment there was no resistance, except sporadical cases of rather criminal than political nature.

All statemens which we can hear today about "Chechens never stopped resistance" is a pure speculation.

Actually real goals of Chechen terrorist are much simpler - to return to the way of living they had between 1992 and now. They were lords of Chechnya, they were above Law and any justice. They felt in Chechnya very safe and could run their deadly business of steling oil, taking hostages and demanding money from Russia to "restore" Chechen economy.

MYTH #5. THE CONFLICT IS ETHNICAL: CHECHENS AGAINST RUSSIANS.

Many people like to understand the conflict as an ethnical one: Russian hate Chechens, so they kill them. Sure, it makes it very easy to indesrtand and explains everything for not mature mind.

I say bullshit! Many nationalities are fighting from both sides. Russian Army includes literally all nationalities of Russia (more than 30O!), including Chechens, Kalmyks, Jews, Buriats, and so on. There are even separate Chechen police forces lead by Beslan Gantabirov, in a number of ~3,000, fighting side by side with Russians.

Terrorists groups are also multinational. Apart of Chechens among surrendered terrorists there are Russians, Ukraininans, Lithuanians, Arabs. Yesterday two citizens of China (!) were captured.

There are more than 300 nationalities in Russia. All of them do not consider themselves Russians. About 70 nationalities have territorial formations. Yet it is not the reason for them to start war against rest of Russia.

Another surprise for you: did you ever know that there is a separate field for nationality in Russian passport? When people recceive the passport they are asked about their nationality and are free to choose one. Anyone is also free to change nationality. All is needed is to come to the passport desk and to fill in the "zayavlenie" an application to change the passport.

Russia is one of a very few countries, which do not drive people into the same nationality.

MYTH #6. THE CONFLICT IS RELIGIOUS: MUSLIMS AGAINST CHRISTIANS.

Similar as the previous myth gives fuel for nationalism, this one gives fuel for religious extremism. Both are equal bullshit!

Russian Army is comprised by 300 mationalities, some of which are Muslims. Who are the main supporters of Russian Army in Caucasus? Chechens (Muslims), Dagestan (Muslims), Armenia (Cristians). Pakisan (Muslims) thrown out Chechen envoy Yandarbiev.

Who support Chechen rebels? Also Chechens (Muslims), Georgia (Cristians), all Europe (Cristians), especially UK where funds, supporting Chechen separatisks legally and openly exist, Azerbaijan (Muslims), Ingush (Muslims).

As you can see Chechen conflict is not about religion. Stop talking about it!

MYTH #7. RUSSIAN ARMY CONDUCTS GENOCIDE AGAINST CHECHENS.

Russian Army in Chechnya has clearly set goals - to eliminate terrorist organisations. Nevertheless it is often blamed for torturing, raping and looting innocent civilians in Grozny and the rest of Chechnya.

Of course you may find such facts; the war is the war. However these facts are rather exception than a rule and are properly addressed by prosecution. E.g. last month three soldiers, who shot a street seller were sentenced to several years of prison. Prosecutors deliberately address these fact in order not to leave a chance for blaming Russian army for atrocities. But it all seems in vain. We call it "Svinja griazi najdet" - a pig will always find a dirt. Western media wants to find blame on Russian side, they search for it and so they find it from time to time. When it happens, all start to scream and yell at Russia. The cases are tremendously inflated and are re-iterated many times in all possible combinations. The vast majority of atrocities from Chechen side are simply skipped. Black and white painting it is called.

Now let me tell you a little bit about how Chechens defend normally. I have a right to tell it, because it has many proofs, videos and so on. It was the case in Pervomaiskoye, Kizliar, Grozny Alkhan-Yourt and other towns and villages. First, they do not let civilians to leave the place; the ones who to escape try are normally stand in front of a firing squad. Second, when they finally have to leave they take civilian hostages with them and use them as a cover.

Examples? Be my guest. When Basaev entered Kizliar in 1996, he organised defence in a city hospital; none was allowed to leave the building. People were put against the windows with terrorists behind their backs. When Basaev received transport he took hundreds of civilians with him and continued to use them as a cover. You will recall that Basaev now is freedom fighter #2 after Maskhadov. Another example: in Alkhan Yurt rebels did not allow civilians to leave; instead they were forces to dig trenches. None was released until battle began, during which many of civilians were killed. This is true rebels tactic.

Here is what Russian troops are normally do: as they approach the town/village, they contact local elderlies and tell them: "look, we do not what to kill civilians, so if there are any fighters in the village let us know and get out of the village, we will shell it. Alternatively, you can try to agree with these fighters so that they leave; in this case we will enter the village without a single shot. But if we are attacked, we will fight and the village will be destroyed". Very often this tactic works. Second largest city of Chechnya - Gudermes was liberated this way.

Now tell me who takes more care of civilians?

Thanks Svolach that was explained very well.