Satso, just an aside you mention U2's Beautiful day, what about another song on that album "Peace on earth" - very good lyrics! But you probably won't understand it.

---

"You don't just walk about shooting people"- no you don't if you have no access to weapons and you don't know how to use one in the first place.
The Registered guns are not kept in the home by the way!
Add to that the Swiss are all very confortable!

I don't think banning ownership of weapons will solve the immediate problem of criminality, but it may be a step towards changing mentalities.(If you hurt me, I'll kill you"---- "-if you get in my way, I'll kill you-it won't make any difference to kind of sentence I get- why leave any witnesses")
You also don't "just walk around shooting people" when you have a life worth living, asperations,the means to achieve your aims.
Maybe rampant soulless capitalism is reaping it rewards.

Yes, crimals continue to use firearms in Britain, but that tends to be for" financial reward" or in power struggles (Yardies), you can provide protection for potential targets(say bankworkers) - You can't protect against the random attacks of madmen shooting five-year olds. (BTW is there a standard test for sociopaths, retarded morons and people with short fuses????)

By the way if you think that the outright shock felt in Britain when those children were shot is Jamie Sheaism- you don't know much about the British mentality.
(I still wouldn't want to live in the States.My son can still play out in the front garden safely here )

"* supermarket moms packing heat...
They can be seen sometimes, - moms, driving with Uzis".

AS One South- African singer put it:

".....There's an AK47 on the dashboard, coz mercy just left town!"

(It can only go downhill from there, unless someone finds the courage to say "we're better than that"!)

Hi, Kim.
* no you don't if you have no access to weapons and you don't know how to use one in the first place.
Tough. But ... who has ever had the power to eliminate the black market thing?
Anyways, the armies exist, and they do "provide" access to weapons and training. Magazines exist, like Combat Handuns, give some training too. And, besides, with the exception of dumb ones, the handgun workings are not that difficult to figure out by oneself.
Ultimately, in the end, what You imply is a totalitarian control. With the recent USSR example (BTH, it took all guns out the peoples' hands, but didn't eliminate the violent gun crimes, whatsoever.). Would You go for it?

* The Registered guns are not kept in the home by the way!
In Switzerland?
All right, where the unregistered ones are kept then?
Figures, that I gave previously, come from the BBC's quote of the Swiss Authorities.

* I don't think banning ownership of weapons will solve the immediate problem of criminality, [...]
The problem of criminality is not an immediate one. This trick is used in the US by pro-banners.
Again, how can authorities ban illegally acquired handguns short of house-to-house searches and frisking people on the street?
Chairman Mao said so - do it?

* If you hurt me, I'll kill you"---- "-if you get in my way, I'll kill you-it won't make any difference to kind of sentence I get- why leave any witnesses"
Ki-i-i-im, You are not serious with this one, are You?:o)

* You also don't "just walk around shooting people" when you have a life worth living, asperations,the means to achieve your aims.
True, one of the factors, contributing to an emergence of a low violent crime society. And it applies to guns, knives, axes, computer monitors and keybords, that can hurt too.

* Maybe rampant soulless capitalism is reaping it rewards.
Maybe, but it applies to any material society type.

* Yes, crimals continue to use firearms in Britain, but that tends to be for" financial reward" or in power struggles [...]
As everywhere, including the defunct USSR, and even China of Mao! But has it lowered the overall rate of homicides? No.
In the State of Vermont it is allowed to bear handguns. In the overall US crime table Vermont ranks 49-th. Eh?

* you can provide protection for potential targets(say bankworkers)
Personal?! Who bears the cost?

* You can't protect against the random attacks of madmen shooting five-year olds.
Is there protection against the random attacks of madmen knifing, etc. five-year olds?

* (BTW is there a standard test for sociopaths, retarded morons and people with short fuses????)
Yes, it is this MB! And we already have one "allamerican", that tested positive to all You mentioned;o)
But, being serious, in order to apply for driving courses, for a computer operator job, an electrician job, etc. in the USSR one had to undergo a mandatory psychiatric examination. Would You go for being viewed by a state as a walking hazard waiting to go off? (Exactly the driving force behind the British gun-ban. What's next?)

* By the way if you think that the outright shock felt in Britain when those children were shot is Jamie Sheaism- you don't know much about the British mentality.
No, Kim, I didn't mean to hurt. It is just the way the British reporters tend to append their reports on violent gun crimes with the sick reminder that, guns are banned in Britain.

* It can only go downhill from there, unless someone finds the courage to say "we're better than that"!
Kim, dear:o) The recent example of "This house is gun-free!" stickers had those houses repeatedly robbed in the first place, until the campaign just predictably fizzled out by itself. So much for the courage. If the RSA is in deep sh.t socially, would banning firearms contribute to dwindling of the violent crime rate?
Can a Pal gunman say same?
Israel is a whole lot another story, - it is another mentality, the peculiarities of the birth of the State and the mental brakes, and no Jews to attempt at life for the sake of property, or otherwise, like in the RSA. But, as You mentioned once there was one person You would kill for, so would the supermarket moms, and, as there are no Jews to attempt at their dear ones, You understand who there is.
An old story comes to mind. It took place, when the leftists and Oslo were on rampage. A mom was driving her sick mother from Hebron to a clinic, she took her kids with her, as there was noone to leave them at home with. Her car came under shower of stones and a couple of Molotov cocktails at the exit. She stopped the car and shot one of the assailants, having wounded him, and was accused for it and indicted and imprisoned. Thank G-d, those irresponsible lefties are at bay now.
Preaching (no offence, Kim, please:o) non-violence is a great thing, but only when it doesn't get to the top and start to substitute the sober reality with its utopian perceptions of that reality.
In general:
* Gun-banners want to ban guns on a presumption that they kill. They don't - people kill, and they can do it with knives, axes, computer monitors.
* Gun bans don't prevent, or lower the violent crime rate, - the accents just shift. As I mentioned way before, the Moscow crime statistics cites (and is pretty within international figures on that) that, 75% of all homicides are committed with kitchen knives.
* I don't see any reason, except a profound mistrust towards its citizens on the part of the state, or, throw in a conspiracy, the desire to have as much unarmed citizens as possible when the state (i.e. the Govt.) decides to go bad. That's why it is not the guns, the NRA is fighting over, at the core, but the BOR, and, I am sure, L'-san, even being anti-gun, would fight for his BOR.

"False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson

"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed, the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line of defense." - Walter Williams

Kim, L'-san.
The Russian NTV ran a report from a former secret biological weapons lab, build in 1957 and located in Kazakhstan. (Kim, those ones around the Globe are to be feared of, - not the hapless gun owner. Nothing can compete with a govt., or a terrorist gang on rampage. Sorry, couldn't resist. Peace:o) It contains depressing- and mean-looking microclimatized vaults of sealed glass vials of deaths and deaths, and more deaths, with nice Latin names, to people, to animals, to vegetation, to bacteriae, ... . They couldn't pass by England and have been analyzing the outbreak of the foot-and-mouth, and tend to belive that, it was not a result of natural causes. They cited a case of the misterious outbreak of the epidemics of the African pestilence in Cuba just after the economic blockade had been installed, and which ruined the Cuban pork industry, - they just had to burn everything, the slaughterhouses, factories, the livestock, all of it. You catch the drift?

Mustafa, the mullahs confiscated Your Pokemon?
LOL.

Konichiwa, K-san!
afternoon, mum!
1353
===
"L-san being anti-gun..."
um, not exactly; i tried to distinguish the
_responsible_ vs. the _wack jobs_, allowing that
the _responsible_ did exist.
but alas, it's the _wack jobs_ who make the noise
and get the publicity.

'not my bear to cross', as the saying goes. more
ambiguity than i feel like trying to delve into.


but 'gun control', now that you mention it,
differs from 'anti-gun', yes? [w/g]

that song i posted at USC, 'men with
guns'...oy...about how 'men with guns' have
created terror and perpetuated bloody power trips
at the point of their guns.

all over the goddam world.
=
"The armed ones said
'see how these bullets still a voice
or the pen the sword is weaker than'
The condemned replied
'oh yes, i see where words would fail me now'
picked up the pen
and put their eyes out with it..."

bettergoode's response had naught to do with what
i was saying.
==
american media-culture is outrageously
overstimulated; true dat.
so ingrained as to be taken for granted.
i teased my sister about her nightly cable tv
action-movie viewing;"every night, guns and
explosions"...and every single night, more guns
and explosions to choose from...
==
so K-san, chula, instead i go to where the guns
and explosions are real. -_-
[eyeroll/sigh]
===
howdy, mum!
how the heck are you?
===
{+3sk

Ah furck Delenne, do I really have to go out and learn to shoot one of those horrible things? - It seems you are argueing for everyone's right to have one, I'd be mad not to defend myself, Right?

Ruari recently started taking pocket-fulls of stones to school....Guess why!!!
The other KIDS were doing it!
Somewhere back in my childhood, I was taught to use words not stones to settle arguements. Seems my parents and teachers were complete hypocrites!

(By the way would you apply the same arguements to Fox hunting?)

L'san, I'm wonderful, and you? I'll email you a bit later on.

Foot & Mouth the French farmers revenge? :0)

BTW: a big :0) missing from post above!

Hi, Kim,
* do I really have to go out and learn to shoot one of those horrible things?
No, and I was not pushing You to do this. I'm not a shooter myself. I don't consider those things horrible, though. They have been part of my "environment" for a long time.

* It seems you are argueing for everyone's right to have one,
Isn't it the right of one to have one?

* Ruari recently started taking pocket-fulls of stones to school...
Humanity developing ... .
But I would find out the example-setter and have a word with him.

* Guess why!!!
Too much of news from Gaza, I guess?;

* Seems my parents and teachers were complete hypocrites!
No, I included a quote of Walter Williams intentionally. You, me, my parents, whos next? Not too many. An unfortunate price to pay.

* (By the way would you apply the same arguements to Fox hunting?)
No. The chances are way out of even a semblance to equality. A single fox chased by a pack of dogs, horses, men ... . Though, I'm not against hunting as such. Wild pigs are tasty;o)

* Foot & Mouth the French farmers revenge? :0)
The scale, Kim, the scale.
Though, I have a "conspiracy" of my own. It started with those flood rains. Some cow "mass grave" of old got uncovered, or something else?
The South Ukraine experinced routine outbreaks of it. Nothing of the British scale. But, maybe, because, the livestock there was vaccinated.

Hi everybody!
____________________________________________________

Delenn

"Ultimately, in the end, what You imply is a totalitarian control. With the recent USSR example (BTH, it took all guns out the peoples' hands, but didn't eliminate the violent gun crimes, whatsoever.). Would You go for it? "

Wrong. Violence is much worse now than it was under the USSR. Far from defending the USSR tought it's a fact that our... civilization failed in matter of monstruousity. I think children can play safely outside in the US as well. But on day a teenager take a gun and shoot down a few ones. It's not usual but it starts to happend more and more.
Gun control is a good think. It's never too late.
I think the control of the movie production should be aimed too.
It's rare, verry rare to see a movie without a gun.

"Again, how can authorities ban illegally acquired handguns short of house-to-house searches and frisking people on the street? "

And why not do it? Having the police checking your car or your house in search of illegal weapons won't do no arm. (_!-)
In the US poeple need it somehow.

", the Moscow crime statistics cites (and is pretty within international figures on that) that, 75% of all homicides are committed with kitchen knives. "

Because almost nobody own a fire weapon in the former USSR. Difficult to beleive, Heh!?
So what's the rate in the US?

"In the State of Vermont it is allowed to bear handguns. In the overall US crime table Vermont ranks 49-th. Eh? "
What's the difference with being allowed to own handguns? Seriousely.
And souldn't the gun be visible when carried by the owner?

_____________________________________________________

L"'Menexe

I caught your "drift". (see post one week ago)

But why (to hate) the poles more than the lithuanians, the lettons, the estonians, the tchecs, the slovaks... You can blame the whole East of Europe.

More: You can blame the former USSR.
The communist finished the job to the perfection.
No one jew in Russia today (the two last one escaped to Spain). They didn't kill them all. Just some of them. They exterminated them culturaly. The russian jews have renegate theyr religion and theyr community.
And now they are all coming up "HI! I'm jewish!".

I don't remember who on USC posted and reposted "the communists (jews)..." but it's BS.
Communists and nazis were on the same wavelenght.
Just the method differed.
And of course: communism is against making business...

By L'menexe ( - 172.134.179.149) on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 08:15 am:
FAKE AMERICAN DISGUSTING EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN GROSS PIG FARIS HOMOUD:

"...there's quite a difference between 'never married' to 'never having made love to a woman' "

---

What about being married (10years+) AND having never made love with a woman?

What I r-r-r-really like about Mssr. LeDingue is his being eatable, mustard, pepper, a knife and a fork, ... haven't I forgotten anything?:o#
* Wrong. Violence is much worse now than it was under the USSR.
Wrong... ;oP
I meant totalitarian control, - not the violent-crime rate!

* Gun control is a good think.
Isn't there any yet?;oP

* I think the control of the movie production should be aimed too.
Ahoy! Chairman Ma-a-a-o-o-o!
We will restrict karate next, - a karate buff is a potential threat to innocent folks.

* It's rare, verry rare to see a movie without a gun.
Watch good movies, like The Heat. E-e-e-eh, sorry, there are big guns in it too, - watch the Baywatch!;oP

* And why not do it? Having the police checking your car or your house in search of illegal weapons won't do no arm.
Violating The Second, the Fifth, the Ninth Amendments to the Constitution. Go for it;o))

* In the US poeple need it somehow.
Even the US anti-gun/ban-gun activists wouldn't attack the their Constitution.

* Because almost nobody own a fire weapon in the former USSR.
It is the figure of the year 1999.
(... almost nobody own a fire weapon ... - the whole of Siberia was/is full of magazine rifles + shotguns, the number of which is even bigger.)

* So what's the rate in the US?
Almost same. Freddile, what You see, is not what You get. Wives, friends, neighbours, strollers, drug-pushers, women of the street are, unortunately, killed, maimed, mutilated with knives, axes, pipes, ... cars on a "regular" basis, - it does not make international news, and, because the policy of dealing with everything in CNN-type-"regulated" societies is fits-and-starts-campaign-like - blame the gun; or, maybe it is the people that are to blame, not that metallic mechanical complexity.

* What's the difference with being allowed to own handguns?
Well, pushed into some digging into the matter, so, the right to own and the right to carry/bear differ. In BC, for instance, it is allowed to own a handgun, but not allowed to bear it. A person out on his way to a range should carry it in a bag unloaded. Still, keeping it loaded at home and justifiable defence is allright. Laws vary.

* And souldn't the gun be visible when carried by the owner?
Laws vary again.
I could carry it concealed here, if I had one, but it's Israel, anyways. "Chosen people" and stuff, You know:oP
Fred, You are eaten;o)

A sad fun:
"Israeli terms... well, assuming Barak's offer was the best-case scenario and, assuming the UN doesn't actually read the PA propaganda, then, if Israel is lucky, it will just have to give up all of the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights and, since Israel is lucky in this scenario, it keeps the Old City and a security perimeter around it, and enough of the Golan Heights so that people in the Galilee only get shot at occasionally.
Worst case. Israel starts killing all the Palestinians after 25-th final offer of peace, and the UN invades to stop it, creating an Arab state. Judging by international opinion, option 2 is more likely."

Vermont and people alowed to carry guns - lowest crime rate- therefore prohibition doesn't work......BS! - What is the average standard of living in Vermont compared with other states, inner cities etc.- ??????
You have to take it all into account!


Plus if this is all about taking guns away from innocent "sports-enthusisasts", what was Better's poem about? - that is just a pretext for the fact that people are so scared they feel they need to resort to home-defence.(how realistic are their fears? - it seems the NRA is doing a good job of playing on people's fears".)

Where do the illigitimate weapons come from? By secret shipment from Cuba? - no, they were originally sold as legit "sports equipment"!
Limiting the supply combined with laws making it an offence to carry or own weapons,
etc. ( then enforce those laws)---, stop using the gangster image to sell merchandise, remove the glamour......

By the way, the pro-hunt lobby in England argues that us left-wing town-dwellers don't understand the Country-side life and that banning hunting would be punishing those who make a living from servicing hunts. Despite the odd Teenaged innocent who might believe that this is about protecting animals, most of us know that by attacking hunting, we are actually attacking the establishment: In the country the Stock-market employed rich landowning folks rule and the local yokals know their place.
Fox-hunting is an exclusive social club!

"Gun-ownership is a way of life".........same arguement!
Morals be damned!