To Philip:

No we didn't leave Russia via Israel. Actually very few people that we know did.

Russia is a terrorist nation: check your head.
Russian terrorism against Chechnya has been instigated by yeltin and putin to STAY in power: conspiracy theories are fun.
Russia has the privelage of being the world's super begger bowl power: prove it with evidence.

Chechens are fleeing into Russia, as RUSSIAN PLANES AND RUSSIAN TANKS ARE NOT FIRING ON CIVILIANS IN RUSSIA! they have NO choice
not because they are pro -Russian! (tell that to the birds!)

This I like. Why would Russian tanks fire on their own civilians. As BLACKJACK pointed out, if Chechens hated Russia, they could go to Georgia or other bordering muslim countries. So, they do have a CHOICE.

More over,
"Local media reports spoke of clashes in Chechnya's second city Gudermes between residents and Muslim militants and some suggested Russian troops might soon move and take over the city."

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991104/wl/russia_chechnya_301.html

hmm. I bet the residence are fighting Chechen rebels out of their love for them. Face it, most Chechens are not anti-Russian, It is just the lawless Warlords who want to be rullers so that they could be untouchable and they use 'freedom' and 'islam' as a cover (as well as civillians).

to Kissie and BJ,
how do you do BOLD and ITALICS?
thanks.

Also take a look here for info from HRW

http://www.hrw.org/press/1999/nov/chech1103.htm

on info that it is likely that Chechen Rebels were headquartered near the market that was attacked and were using those civillians as human shields.

I like to answer here on few questions and comments.
First I will tell about myself. I am Caucasian -Dagestani, native of Dagestan, ethnic Dargin, not Chechen. I live out of former USSR since 1987, was back in Dagestan visiting last year, in 1998.
Now about so called invasion of Dagestan by Chechens in last August. There is different side of the story. In Dagestan there is conflict between local government and local communities. Dagestani government is 100% criminal and corrupted. And this government is supported by Kremlin, because they are loyal to Moscow. It does not mean that Dagestan is loyal to Moscow.
That is why in Dagestan Islam is getting stronger, as a refuge from mafia. During first Chechen war Dagestani government sided with Kremlin, and at the same time many Dagestanis fought on Chechen side against Russian army.
Last August conflict in Dagestan was not started by Chechens, but it started when local villagers in Tsumadinsky district of Dagestan, ethnic avars, declared independent Islamic state and declared Dagestan to be independent. Local pro-Moscow Government sent there police force which was beaten. The leaders of this uprising were: Adallo Aliev, ethnic avar - Dagestani poet, Bagautdin Magomedov - islamic theologist and ethnic dargin, and Nadir Khachilaev , ethnic lak , who previously in May 1998 took government building in Dagestan's capital - Makhachkala. Those people formed core of uprising against present government of Dagestan, which still consists from former communist nomenclatura. At this stage there was no Chechen involvement in this conflict. Dagestani government asked for help Moscow who despatched there armed forces. Also local pro-Moscow mafiosos started forming there own forces, which they presented as a Dagestani volunteers.
Now, - on the Chechen side of border there are some mountain villagers where live ethnic avars, not ethnic chechens. Theoretically , they live in Chechnya but they are of Dagestani origin - ethnic avars. When they saw police moving against civilians in avar area in Dagestan, those avars from Chechen side came to help their kin on Dagestani side. Then russian army was moved against what they called islamists. Then by independence leaders- Adallo Aliev (avar) and Bagautdin Magomedov (dargin) was formed Shura (Counsel) of Independent State of Dagestan. And they invited Shamil Basaev to be as a military leader, to make Moscow scared. And this is how Chechens got involved in Dagestan. So, I as Dagestani like to say here, that there was no invasion of Chechens into Dagestan. Basaev was invited by Shura to fight against army. What people say now in Dagestan (I am staying in touch all the time) that - there was manipulation by federal government to start all this conflict. In June - July local comminities in Dagestan were increasingly harrased by police as to provoke them.
When you are saying that Chechens invaded Dagestan, then you are just repeating russian media, the official russian version.
Now, I like to say here something more. After those avar villagers, who declared independence in Western Dagestan were exterminated, - the Dagestani government used russian army to exterminate dargin villagers in Karamakhi and Chabanmakhi. This is ethnic dargin area, where my people live, it is in central Dagestan, far away from Chechnya. They declared two years ago that they do not live under local government rule and expelled police from their settlements two years ago. The basis of conflict here was that this people came into direct conflict with Head of Dagestan's government Magomed-Ali Magomedov. This man is the biggest narco-boss in Dagestan, 70% of drugs produced in Dagestan are under his control. Two years ago villagers in Karamakhi (who are ethnic dagrins) cut his puppy fields. And the joke is that Magomed-Ali Magomedov is himself ethnic dargin, and he promised two years ago to finish those his dargin co-ethnics who against him. And he used Russian army to erase from earth's face those two dargin villagers last september. Do you know that they collected about 400 bodies of children and women from those villages and droped them into the Caspian sea on the border with Azerbaijan, to hide any evidence? That is what my relatives tell me from Dagestan.
Now about Chechens helping Nazi during WWII.
Do you know that in the famous Brest, where soldiers fought against invading German army long after fashists pushed far into USSR in 1941, absolute majority of those soldiers were Chechens, Ingushs and Dagestanis. My own relative was there, there were very few ethnic russians. Majority of those who fought to death there - were Caucasians, that is why they did not capitulate.
You are perverting facts.
PS- I use name of Leo Tolstoy, because I really love this russian writer. If there were more russians like him, then russian nation will have chance to build democracy.

Yes I know of Brest. I visited it. It is in Belarus. How did Chechens and Dagestanis get all the way to Belarus? The story of Brest that I heard didn't mention anything of Caucasian fighters. And although the story of Brest is very tragic and patriotic it has nothing to do with events in the Chechnya during WWII where ethnic Chechens, just like some Ukranians sold out Russians to the Nazis so did some Chechens. I myself am part Belorussian Jew and part Cossac. My great grandfather was a Kazak and fought with the whites during the Revelution. My relatives are also in the troubled region. And they also tell my stories, but those differ from yours. I do not deny that things are really screwed up over there, but Chechens are not blameless of the fighting. The Warlords are out of control and the Russians are not much better. I have been told storieds of Russian commanders selling soldiers to the Chechens who then blackmail their relatives. The fact is the the region is Lawless and presents a security threat. I will continue later... I have to go right now.

Pair of Russian warplanes circled the area and then fired air-to surface missiles at 10:30 a.m. The projectiles destroyed a private home on Batakuyeva Street, another home on Okruzhnaya Street, and Secondary School no. 1, located between Khan-Pasha Nuradilova and Avtobusnaya street. Seven members of the Umkhayev and Temirsultanov family were killed, including a 50 year-old male, a 60 year-old female; a 30 year-old female; and four children. The attack on Secondary School no. 1 wounded some twenty students, some seriously. Human Rights Watch was unable to determine the warplanes' intended targets.

Human Rights Watch

... The lack of authority in the region is more of a threat to the people than Russian military. If the military doesn't stabilize Chechnya, than it has at least stabilized the neighboring Russian regions. Again, what you tell is rumors told to you by your relatives, rumors tend to become magnified as they are told from person to person, that is why I don't retell my relatives' stories. If you can substantiate your story, then please you evedince - until then it's merely a conspiracy theory someone told you.

Now, on Chechen involment in Dagestan. You admit that armed groups from Chechnya, crossed the Russian border and clashed with Russian troops/citizens. That is part of point. I didn't say the government of Chechnya ordered the attacks, I said that since the goverment of Chechnya was unable to control it's subjects, it was still responsible for their actions. Which should be considered as military provocation. If a band of Armed Racist Texans attacked Mexican towns because for some reason Mexico started disliking Americans. Mexico would have every right to Demand the US Govm'nt to take action against those rouges. If the US was unable to do so, then Mexico would be well justicified to declare war on the USA. I fail to see the distinction b/w this scenario and the cause of the Chechen conflict. If there is one, please mention it.

To S.M.
Chechens, Dagestanis and Ingushs served in the Soviet Army which was stationed in Brest after USSR annexed that part in 1940. Absolute majority of the soldier's garrison in Brest consisted from Caucasians. This is historical fact. Why it never was published during Soviet time. Well, there were many facts which were never published under comminists.

If you served in the former Soviet Army then you should know that is the policy to sent conscripts to serve away from their home area. For example Dagestanis does not serve in Dagestan, all local garrisons consist from ethnic russians from as far as Far East.

Now about Nazi sympatizers between Chechens.
You forgot that there were Nazi sympatizers between all nations in the former USSR, not only Ukrainians or Chechens, but also Russians and others. And the reason was Stalin's oppresion.

You also forgot that there were recently threats against Jewish Sinagogas in Moscow from russian extremists.

There are criminals in every nation, including Russian, Chechen, Jewish or Dagestani. But it does not make those nations criminal.

If you ever being to Caucasus and lived there for a while, then you will notice that people of Caucasus do not hate Russians or Jews, which I can not say about Russia itself. It is because we have dignity. And we know what means words "honour" and "self-respect"

The rise of crime is not characteristic to Chechnya or Caucasus alone. You forgot about contract murders in Moscow and other parts of Russia. Somehow you are using facts out of their context only to present the point of view which suits you. Then I have to conclude that you hate Caucasians for some only to you known reason and are using this web site not for constructive dialogue, but to spread your hate.

I do not want to insult you over the web because I respect myself.

Present escalations of conflict in Caucasus are symptoms of de-colonization of Russian state.

Some time in the future, after this and may be more bloody wars, Chechnya, Dagestan and Nothern Caucasus will be Independent State.

World will applaud to Chechnya and to Caucasus.

To Leo

I suspect that S.M hates Caucasians as many of them are muslim and christian and he is a jew. Anyway, he is an insignificant individual whose opinions are hardly notworthy. In USA, many Russian jews have used their 'jewishness' to get out. The trick they use: first they go to Israel, then later emigrate to USA. (which is their plan all along) As immigration directly from Russia is almost impossible for non jews.

I have to congratulate the jews on their sneakiness

To: Texan
---
Agh-ah, it's You, worthless bag of fresh cowshit of Texas, the state of separatists, drunks, general and special pissfaces, again? Tell You what, initial immigrants, those strong ones, moved westward, now they're noble canadians. Whimpers moved South, with a cess-pool called Texas.

In USA, many Russian jews have used their 'jewishness' to get out. The trick they use: first they go to Israel, then later emigrate to USA. (which is their plan all along) As immigration directly from Russia is almost
impossible for non jews.
---
That empty begger bowl of a head is a total schmock. How non-Jews can, he-he, immigrate to Israel? How a Jew can be a non-Jew? What a schmock!